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legal boosters? |
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ohwell
Super Member Joined: 08/04/2017 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 232 |
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Lots of great points. I agree that framing the issue in terms of the availability of boosters is misleading, and that custom boosters are a problem too. I must admit though: I doubt differences from custom vs commercial boosters boosters make nearly as big of a difference as whether or not boosters are used at all. But it’s entirely possible they do. The solution might be to make custom boosters illegal. I’m not sure. But if that’s the main issue it comes down to we would both agree that the crusade on boosters is misguided: it should instead be a crusade against proprietary/custom rubbers and chemicals. About h3 needing booster, in a way that other rubbers don’t. I fully agree. But at that stage I must admit something else: my background hypothesis is that at the end of the day this mess is socio economic. I suspect that what’s going is more like a tension between China’s need to train developing players with very affordable rubbers and corporate interest in maintaining the costs of rubbers made with tensor type tech as high as possible and maximize profit. (DHS also has commercial interests here, but if I’m right their business model as far as rubbers go relies mostly on selling affordable rubbers in very very high quantities,) If that’s correct, ITTF’s seemingly absurd position is actually very sensible: a ban on boosters that they don’t enforce incentivizes tensor type rubber purchase while letting the low tech, cheap rubber + booster be. (If that’s right the whole thing has little to do with tacky top sheets. That would raise the question of why top level tacky tensor type rubbers aren’t widespread. My best guess would be that there just isn’t a big enough market for it to motivate Bty/ESN to do better than the handful of options they currently produce.) Ofc these are just hypotheses and guesses which I’m not in a position to adequately verify. |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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That's really interesting, I've never thought about it from that perspective before. That makes it more of a clash between "pure" sporting ethics and the messy real-world.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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ohwell
Super Member Joined: 08/04/2017 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 232 |
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I like your way of putting it! Maybe that's a good way to understand what's going on with Timo Boll - his perspective seems like the pure sporting ethics one?
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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H3 National is available on DHS official web store and at authorized retailers at a premium - much much higher than any Tensors they sell and the T05.
The bottom line, it still sells like hot cakes. |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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ohwell
Super Member Joined: 08/04/2017 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 232 |
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I wish we could see the sales figures. You may be right, but my hunch is that, as with a lot of things, popular items among very informed buyers and EJs represent a tiny fraction of the sales. But again you may well be right. |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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The monthly sales figures are there on Taobao. You'll be amazed by how many they manage to sell.
Edited by zeio - 10/27/2017 at 3:20pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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al_111
Member Joined: 04/05/2017 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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I would guess that Chinese internal market alone has plenty of buyers who are informed enough
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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All right. Here is the monthly sales figures for all rubbers sold on DHS official web store at TMall:
Ranked by numbers sold for the past 30 days:
Edited by zeio - 10/27/2017 at 3:38pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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holy cr@p! I did not know that non-Neo H3 was still so wildly popular - wonder why? That being said, National sales there are no great shakes - as I'm assuming that casual players in China can get commercial from other local sources (ie: at their club).
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slevin
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Perhaps. But, what Timo is complaining about is a situation in which only one of them is using boosters. In which case, at their level of calibrated mini-advancements in level, using boosters probably makes a decent enough difference.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Apparently not always.
There is no shot that Chinese players hit that I have not seen performed by European players. They are not better because of their rubbers. They are better because of the intensity and quality of coaching and training and level of competition of practice partners from about age 6 until they retire. There are many reasons for this. |
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Baal
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Like night and day. |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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A big part of the reason is that the H3 you buy now is practically the same as the H3 Neo, except it doesn't come with that layer of glue/tuner/primer. The topsheet and sponge are practically the same, not the old one with the old line art designed for the speed glue, the stock of which has been depleted. |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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Wait, wut? I did not know that - this is useful info. So, this version is the same as H3NP? Also, how come H8 did not take off as much in China? Sorry for the brief threadjack!
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Ping Pong Tradition
Ma, why do you boost? Why do you tune? Why must you live out The stuff that you're doin'? Ain't Hurricane 3 Simply good enough for ye? Why must you soak it With that oil called Dianchi? Suppose you and Timo Played a match with no oils. Would it make any difference As to who gets the spoils? Let me tell you, spuds I'm the world's top pro. Put yourself in my position-- If I stay up all night So my rubber don't dome, It's a ping pong tradition. Edited by berndt_mann - 10/27/2017 at 4:14pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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the_theologian
Premier Member Joined: 01/11/2009 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 3895 |
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Strange that the sales figures lump gold arc 5 and 8 together
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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That is the old package for the H3 Provincial.
The new package is the one in dark purple. H8? Price. For that amount, why not just go for H3 Provincial? Another reason is that the CNT still use H3. |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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So the CNT still uses H3,
Do they still boost it illegally?
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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There is a promotion going on right now, where for every GoldArc 5/8 bought, you get a 10-pack 1-star D40+. The promotion started in spring. I guess they created a consolidated product page for those two to reduce confusion. Edited by zeio - 10/27/2017 at 4:31pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Would they be better if The Lord of Hosts, who let us remember plays with a 2" X 1" Hock No. 1 1-ply poplar hardbat with the Heavenliest Leyland rubber Heaven can provide, were to proclaim Enough Is Enough! Train as hard as you want from age 6 on, as intensely as you can, with top quality coaches, incredible competition and practice partners galore but....no more sponge or boosters as this situation has gotten completely out of hand. Would these titans ot table tennis still be what they are not only without boosting oils but without sponge rubber altogether? Time to level the playing field once again and once and for all. Either that or, since Halloween is coming up shortly, have charitable well off folk pass out Hurricane 3 Professional and Seamoon Exclusive for all the trick or treating pros, not just a chosen few, instead of Kit Kats, M & Ms, and Hershey's kisses.
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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Am I the only one that finds it ironic that while some ppl claim boosting rubbers gives the chinese players an advantage, neither Ma Long nor Lin Gaoyuan won the Men's World Cup in Belgium?!??. Shouldn't that be an indication that boosting does not necessarily mean having an advantage? Boosting does not guarantee a win!!! not at all! and BTW...this is Ma Longs old racket with Tenergy 05 on the backside (2011)... FdT |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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(FdT)
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that while some ppl claim
boosting rubbers gives the chinese players an advantage, neither Ma Long
nor Lin Gaoyuan won the Men's World
Cup in Belgium?!??. Shouldn't that be an indication that boosting does
not necessarily mean having an advantage? Boosting does not guarantee a
win!!! not at all! I'm not among the throng who claim that boosting rubbers gives advantage only to the Chinese players. Virtually all the pros boost, either because they think that they'll gain some sort of advantage by boosting, or if they don't boost, they're going to be at a disadvantage playing opponents who do. You're right. Boosting doesn't necessarily guarantee that you're gonna win some kind of title, but as sure as it don't rain in Indianapolis in the summertime the pros seem to believe this, or why all this boosting mania in the first place? What's it all about, Alfie? You know, boosting is a question of monumental unconcern to all but a few thousand Americans and probably an equivalent number of Canadians. But it does give us hard core types who post to tt forums something to talk about. Could it be that the average Yank and the average Canuck are saner than we? Maybe. At least when they play recpong in their recrooms or garages they don't know that some of the things they are doing are illegal. Can the same be said of the pros? Edited by berndt_mann - 10/27/2017 at 10:18pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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" But it does give us hard core types who post to tt forums something to talk about. "
Agreed! " Could it be that the average Yank and the average Canuck are saner than we? " NO! Have you seen the sports those PPL watch in their spare time? Golf, Poker, Darts, Baseball....How lame are they!! How low does your IQ have to be to find amusement on things like "Wrestling"... Now, some comments in this site leave me baffled, but there's a few very informative posts as well. FdT |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Now hold it right there, hoser. You do realize, don't you, that you are libeling a few hundred million bill-paying, tax-paying, law abiding, perfectly nice Americans plus a few tens of millions of Canadians as well. When I'm not reading Tolstoy in Russian, Lao Tzu in cryptographic Chinese, or simply going to the crapper, I enjoy an occasional golf match, high stakes poker game from Vegas (is that a sport? ESPN thinks it is), have been known to toss a few darts (not very accurately), and just concluded seeing the Houston Astros defeat the Los Angeles Dodgers to win the third game of the World Series. And I have an IQ once estimated to be around 303. Wrassling is a lot of fun. Where else can you see two gynormous guys lifting one another over their heads and tossing the other out of the ring and then proceeding to beat the tossee senseless with a folding chair? What red-blooded longshoreman or lumberjack wouldn't want to see that? So who watches ping pong? Guys hunched over their laptops getting their jollies off a few guys or gals 99% of the world outside of Asia have ever heard of. And this is supposed to keep the old IQ in prime working order? And worst of all, these people don't even pretend to play fair. Every now and then, someone who posts to this forum does make sense. Especially me.
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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A different kind of booster, this one not so legal...
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Baal
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Yes slevin, the linked articles in the Guardian and Irish Times are more clearly written. There you will notice that she is alleging that massive systematic doping occurred in the 1980s and 90s, especially before tbe 1988 Olympics. I believe her. Doesn't have much to do with athletes in 2017. WADA would certainly not "ignore" doping of Chinese athletes. They are nothing if not zealous. By the way, WADA didn't exist until 1999.
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zeio
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I want to take this chance to fill people in on how ML felt over equipment. The passage below came from the other news feed about ML taking a page from Federer's book.
(At the World Cup 2014 in Dusseldorf, after a grueling seven-gamer with ZJK, ML conceded at 3:4. Afterward, the old-school ML decided to switch out his long-standing backhand sponge. Not only did this change take courage, but it also gave rise to unease during the technical shift brought about by the equipment change. "Looking back, if it wasn't because of that (loss), I wouldn't have had the resolve to switch equipment, and probably there wouldn't have been the subsequent me." said Ma Long.) Edited by zeio - 10/28/2017 at 12:08pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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OK - I did not check the date on. WADA isn't all that it is cracked out to be. In Netflix (streaming), there is a free documentary called Icarus. You should see it - it is very revealing about WADA and state-sponsored doping (albeit in a different country).
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bbkon
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true national h3 has different pips under the topsheet to make it lower throw |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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One can only wonder, however: Is Grandma still home?
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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