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Equipment advice needed (USATT 1650) |
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power7
Silver Member Joined: 01/25/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 745 |
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I think you need a tackier rubber on your FH, since you enjoy brushing the ball. You could improve your FH stroke to generate more spin and keep the same rubber as well.
The other weakness I noticed in your video is your cross over step. You should cross over from BH to FH side of the table without turning sideways too much since you're still within 1-3 feet off the table. Especially during drills, since you know what the next ball in the pattern is suppose to be.
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Leshxa
Gold Member Joined: 01/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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There are several variations of types of loops that are generally good to learn how to do. Power loop, or fast loop, or hard loop, or loop drive refers to the same shot. Usually it is an early off the bounce loop with a lot more forward force. Its aim is speed and power. Spin will be delivered as a byproduct of contact, but spin is not the main "ingredient" of that shot. Usually when producing this shot, the aim is only to produce ENOUGH spin to dip the ball so it hits the table. Any more spin, and you will slow down the pace of the ball. Slow loop is mostly regarded as the opening loop. Mainly it is a loop on a descent of the ball at a late timing point. The purpose is not a high arch, the purpose is a strong spin. High arc is the byproduct of players attempting to play safe - by lifting the ball above the net and producing strong enough spin that this type of ball will not be easy to kill even if it gets a little high. The best slow loop is a strong spinny and long loop - loop that ends on the end line. But its not easy to consistently produce a shot with strong spin and deep placement at the same time. Most of the time, we're happy when we produce either a deep ball or a spinny ball. Ultimately, the player with a solid technical foundation should be able to deliver a wide variety of loops. Hard and fast, slow and spinny, deep, etc. This type of player should also be able to vary the shot based on the different timing point when making contact with the ball, thus changing the rhythm of the point and spin of the ball - both are great tactical weapons to every player's disposal. |
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Anton Chigurh
Premier Member Joined: 09/15/2009 Status: Offline Points: 3962 |
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Just because it's not said enough... Leshxa, you rock buddy. I highly value your comments and find them very informative and well worded. Thanks for posting. Strangely, about 80% of your posts seem to end up addressing precisely the things I'm addressing in my own game at that particular moment. It's a funny coincidence, though I know you are quite a bit better than I. Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for posting the above comments (as well as others) and though I don't post much anymore, know that there is at least one member who really appreciates your input. |
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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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power7
Silver Member Joined: 01/25/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 745 |
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The tacky topsheet make the DHS rubber better looping rubbers in general than non-tacky rubbers. He doesn't need to use DHS or hard sponge. Just something tackier than T05, given what I see in the video he presented. He could just adjust his FH stroke to create more spin on his part. But if wants to keep his current stroke the only way I see him becoming more consistent with his FH soft loops is tacky top sheet. I would also recommend a thinner sponge or harder sponge, given what I see in his pushing drills. |
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Imago
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And there is also angle of the racket.
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Anton Chigurh
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^^^ This. Amen. +100. Edited by Anton Chigurh - 06/16/2012 at 3:49am |
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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Anton, where you been? Just out of prison or something?
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Anton Chigurh
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Doctoral program and an 18 month old daughter. So yeah... something like that. |
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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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Leshxa
Gold Member Joined: 01/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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Glad I can help. About the 80% of posts matching what you are working on? Wow! Man, the odd thing is that I have trouble with the same things as I describe. If only understanding of the elements was enough to bring them into the game. I am beginning to feel sometimes that I would be a better coach than a player. :) |
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Anton Chigurh
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I know that feeling. It only takes a few hours time reading and studying to cognitively understand what needs to be done technically or strategically... and yet it takes months (or more) at the table to be able to consistently execute the cognitive understanding in a physical way. If only this were the matrix and we could just download instantaneous physical abilities. |
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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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Leshxa
Gold Member Joined: 01/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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I am far from expert, fatt! I still have a long way to get there. But thank you anyways. :) You are correct though in your findings. Spin is universal. Everyone higher level plays with spin and players get used to dealing with it. So when high level players spin, they can do so in comfort with their good footwork. But... if they spin without the emphasis on speed, they generally do not put the opponent under enough pressure to force them to take riskier shots from uncomfortable position, or to force the opponent to retreat and defend. Speed is the element that changes the offensive rhythm of the rally, while spin is used mostly to recover time necessary to regain a better defensive/counter attacking position. |
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power7
Silver Member Joined: 01/25/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 745 |
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With you guys all focused on speed and only just enough spin, why don't more of you guys play short pips and suggest that to the thread author?
Just seems odd with these views on TT that most of you guys even bother playing with inverted rubbers with sponge. After getting a feel of the forum over the past few weeks...encouraging compact strokes, emphasis of speed over spin...it's like a breeding ground for 70's and 80's style of play.
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Leshxa
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You're missing the point.
Spin is necessary for an opening loop. Hard loops need more speed than spin. Its a variety of shots; not exclusive use of only a fast shot only. |
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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I play against him all the time, and lack of spin is definitely not a problem. I can only think of 3 or 4 players I've played against that produce more spin on their loops. 2 of them are well over 2000.
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power7
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That logic seems perverse. There are 2000+ ranked players who spin better than him, but we don't want to suggest equipment to help him get to 2000+ ranking or play like a 2000+ ranked player...
Aha I see it's "that kind" of TT forum.
Then please by all mean I retract my statements, please continue on...
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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The 2 players I was referring to are 2500+ and probably around 2300 (no official rating since he focuses on coaching). They would be 2000+ with half the spin on their loops. He has plenty of spin, that's not the issue. If I'm not mistaken, he's looking for more consistency and control than he has now without sacrificing a lot spin or speed.
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power7
Silver Member Joined: 01/25/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 745 |
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If that's the case, then I would suggest it is mostly technique on his part. He's rushing his FH loops. He needs to take his time during the opening loops and increase his power as the rally progresses.
Also in the video he needs to take into account his hitting partner cannot return all his heavier shots. If wants to get more consistency out of the training, he should focus on keeping the ball in play with his partner even if he has to hit below 70% of his full power. His basics are all there, it is basically refining and good repetition at this point. And learning how to make good split second judgements. So if he ever plays a good player who has a heavier topspin than him, what options does he have with his current stroke and equipment...I just suggest tacky Chinese or tacky Hybrids to compensate a flaw I see in his game, if he doesn't want to improve his stroke mechanics.
Edited by power7 - 06/16/2012 at 9:21pm |
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Leshxa
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This is exactly why there is a large group of people advising him to leave his equipment alone and not look for a change from equipment to help him with technique.
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power7
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His partner could be an ex-world champ, if he can't return the shot what's the point of training like that. You get less out of the session every time the rally stops. You're suppose training not playing a game. Every second you're wasting pickup balls is just wasted time and money. Some of those drills can be done in multi-ball. The hitting partner is good, but not consistent enough to place some of those balls in a rally situation, you should ask to do multiball in those drills.
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hookumsnivy
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I disagree about the multi-ball comment in this case. Multi-ball is great when you're working on your technique and your typically getting fed easy balls that are not all too common in a match. If you watch, his first shot is good. It's the subsequent shots. To advance your game you have to learn to hit the 2nd shot and the 3rd shot, etc. The spin, speed and placement of each subsequent shot is different and you need to work on your timing, footwork, etc to hit those shots. This type of training is closer to how a real match would be played (except you know where the ball is going). Coaching isn't easy. It's not just about getting the ball back and putting it where you want it. You have to watch the player to see what he's doing right and wrong. That takes a little time away from watching the ball. That makes it much harder to return every single shot. I've heard people refer to this as "coach's eyes"
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Leshxa
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That's funny, I was going to post the same thing! hookumsnivy, I completely agree with you. Multiball is good for building automation and footwork. It is great for speed training, but it cannot be a substitute for a good old combination training when you need to know what kind of shot you do and what kind of response you will most likely receive, so that you can continue your attack. |
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andy.h
Member Joined: 05/23/2012 Location: New York, USA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
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Quick update in case anyone is interested.
I switched to BTY primorac, Xiom Vega Europe max (FH), Xiom Vega Elite 2.0 BH. This setup is 3 times cheaper than my previous setup. AND 3 FREAKING TIMES BETTER :) Yesterday, during the club league night, I beat 1980 player 3:2, I lost 2:3 to a 2000+ player, I beat a bunch of guys who are within the 100 rating points range. I did not notice any changes in spin and speed (which probably means I was not using the T05 correctly to it's full potential?) I did noticed that I have much more control. Everything just lands on the table, no matter what I do :) Blocking? Bring it on, baby! I will block your 10-15-20 of your loops till you fail :) WOW! :) Thanks everybody for your advises! |
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andy.h
Member Joined: 05/23/2012 Location: New York, USA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
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Regarding my strokes and technique.
Yes, I do cross my legs when moving sideways :( Working on that. Yes, I do hit too hard during my lessons. I thought about it and came to a conclusion that I lack balance. My first loop is too hard, I end up in an unbalanced position + plus the ball comes back too fast, so I am totally not ready for it. Which lead me to a conclusion that I need to work on slow opening loops and I realized my setup is probably too fast for that. So, I hit too hard during the lesson because I feel I am loosing balance and this shot could be my last shot for this point, so unconsciously I am hitting harder and harder trying to "win the point", which makes my problem with the balance even worse :( Working of that too :) Thanks again for your thoughts and analysis. |
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JimT
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That is exactly what I meant when I said that 99% of recreational and amateur players around and below USATT 2000 do NOT need to play with Tenergy rubbers. You switched to a slightly slower, way more controllable blade and at the same times changed your Tenergies to more controllable (by you... and by me and by almost everyone else on this forum) rubbers. No wonder your results are better. As for the speed and spin - at your, mine (etc) level there is basically almost no diff in speed/spin between T-series and Vegas or Omegas or LKT Rapid Speed or Yinhe Mars 41 or Acuda (the list goes on). But there is a diff in control, weight, tackiness etc which is why people still need to make a good and informed decision. My advice - continue with this for at least 6 months and then decide whether you want to sped it up (switch the rubbers first, not the blade!) or you are satisfied with what you got. Good luck and congrats on your better setup! |
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BH-Man
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What Andy describes is a very typical scenario of anyone under a high level with challenges to their current level and future growth. Whatever number we assign to it, whether it is 2000 or 2200 under a certain high level, there are many fundemental issues with players games affecting their matchplay and level, MUCH more than equipment. Here in Korea, a coach can ask a new player to get a Schlager Carbon with Extend HS, train a couple years, and in several cases, the player is already 1700-1800 and rising. Many new players will not get above 1600 playing an OFF game for other reasons, like they are not physically coordinated enough to play that style. Usually, there are root causes that go way beyond equipment that are entirely equipment NON-related issues. Balance, timing, movement, consistancy, training of combinations, putting together tactics are among a myriad of things that affect players under that level. At OOAK, I posted a quick-hit 51 item list of things that keep playes from making 1500, but many of these things affect many players under mid-advanced levels. I can copy/past for LULZ.
Don't get me wrong. Equipment is important. Whether one as an OFF player who loops and drives, uses Tenergy or Aurus or Vega or Hexer... big deal. Whether one uses TBS or Strat or PC or SC or Tibhar/Andro OFF blade... big deal. Important point is to use equipment appropriate for the desire style of play. A DEF player who wants to kill spin and play a control and pick hit game can use slower equipment and thinner sponge, maybe even SP/MP. A chopper should use a controlable inverted or LP sponge, even OX if that is their cup of tea. Point is to select appropriate equipment and that area is debatable all day, not exact correct answer.
In practice or in the club... those are two worlds and have obvious differences.
When in a match vs a better or equal player who can think and adjust and who puts you under pressure... Does anyone really think this equipment or that equipment will win them the points? Equipment don't mean a spit when the player is under pressure too tense not thinking, playing errect, out of position, too slow, unable to see tha ball coming at his/her crossover, attacking the wrong balls, etc... These kind of things are the main issues a player should consider and address.
For laughs, I copy & paste the 51 item hit list. Mind you, I still struggle with many of these, but in my time here in Korea, I have improved imeasurably in these areas and became (still becoming) a better player for the tought training coach gives me and the matchplay vs many styles here.
Some reasons why TT players do not reach 1500, 1800, 2000 levels.
1) Cannot properly read spin 2) Cannot be in position for shots 3) Strike the ball out of their optimal strike zone 4) Cannot receive serve 5) Have little spin variation on serve or it is too obvious 6) Do not control depth of serve, nor the height, nor the break, not the location of bounce on serve 7) Make a nice attack, but are unprepared to continue the attack. One block by opponent wins the point. 8..Try for too much power by lifting their elbow or bending backwards, that creates an attack that might land, but player is way off balance to do anything afterwards. 9) Poor balance, stance, and play too upright 10) Try to make power shots (without max spin) when ball has dropped below table 11) Reach for balls 12) Do not step in on serves that are short 13) Do not have courage to step in and flick, even if they know how to flick 14) Make poor decisions on which balls to attack 15) Do not make quality pushes - their push is attacked easily for a point 16) Do not make passing shots that carry light topspin, clear net low, and are difficult to attack and setup an attack for the next shot 17) Do not stay calm in match, easily distracted or upset, bothered by every noise 18) Do not construct points, have no plan how to setup their strong shots 19) Do not take advantage of the serve as a means to create an immediate offensive advantage 20) Grip the bat way too tight in a close point or juncture in a match 21) Use a grip that is difficult to transition form FH to BH and back to FH 22) Move too early before opponents hit the ball, open themselves to a ball hit by where they just were 23) Commit to a FH or BH return by moving arm and blade before opponent strikes ball, which gives away easy point 24) Do not stay close to the table to block to take advantage of time pressure and angles 25) Do not block off the bounce, reach for the block, do not adjust bat angles, do not block to difficult spot, do not know how to block soft, hard, or active 26) Do not have good depth on offensive shots, lands too shallow and allows opponent to easily counter attack 27) Do not generate heavy spin, spin they make is too weak and easy to counter or block 28) Do not know how to vary the spin on attacks and do not attack at different speeds 29) Land attacks, but not at a high enough percentage, inconsistant, lose too many points attacking balls that should be high percentage 30) Attack the "wrong" balls, make poor decisions on which stroke to use 31) Do not have a trained sequence of combinations to attack or block. One block from player's attack or one continued attack from players block is the end of the road - no further plan on how to continue. 32) Do not use enough wrist in loops, lose too much spin. Do not use the whole body. Often raise playing elbow our scrunch shoulder instead of lowering waist and exploding throught the strike zone. 33) Do not know which serves will get which kind of likely return. 34) Do not adapt as match goes on. Try to win using the same tactic or shot, even if opponent has proved he can handle it. 35) Does not have a dependable BH loop opener or BH power shot (shakehand players) 36) Move too far from table to counter 37) Do not move in to hit balls that do not kick towards players, such as a slow, very light underspin or a no-spin ball 38) Too scared to attack, even when presented with a good attacking chance, push balls they shoul loop, then find themselves defending a strong attack. 39) Do not learn what troubles an opponent or what shots give the player a better ball to attack 40) Do not stay crouched in point, do not make a good first step 41) Do not use 2 step or crossover footwork with balance, cannot move to the wide FH to attack, then bounce back towards nuetral position to cope with the return 42) Get scared when they see opponent use heavy topspin, instead of using it as an opportunity to block or counter to disrupt his timing 43) Do not seek to play vs a variety of styles. Ex, can play OK vs a similar attacking topspinner, but fail vs Short Pips BH or LP players 44) Very indecisive or overdecisive 45) Frequently move the hitting elbow forward before impact, reduces power, spin, landing % - that uses mostly shoulder which is too weak compared to using whole body 46) Do not observe strengths/weaknesses of opponents beofre match 47) Do not have an understanding of where to strike the ball (back of ball, top of ball, slightly under the ball) for diffenent incoming balls 48) Backswing pusts racket way too low for an incoming topspin ball, causes player to swing upwards and often long/out 49) Can open vs underspin with an upwards lifting stroke, then use the very same stroke to attack the block, which is usally a light topspin. Result is fail 50) Use the wrist wrong. Use too much slap, (the part of wrist motion that can have a 90 degree range instead of wrist pivot (the part of wrist that has a 30 degree range in each direction 51) Try to wrap around the ball, instead of simply using a consistant swing plane and explode through the ball. I'll stop at 51 beofre any of you throw a frypan at me. In the thread at OOAK, someome posted a pic of a frypan, which was LULZ.
My post is 1/2 way down, maybe the 8th post.
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BH-Man
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We do lots of multiball early in Korea to build foundations of basic stroke play without match pressure. When a player gets better with the strokes, the coaches do more single ball drills that involve movement, timing, tactics, then move on to simple combinations and progressively increase difficulty and complex combos as player can cope, often introduce it a tad early and pace the drill a tad more than the player can cope.
I totally agree that when you get to the level to be able to effective train this kind of scenario, single ball combination drills with good coach are the way to go. Our coaches have a good and time-proven system. Other systems can be great too. No one way to do everything. I just highly agree with the approach Leshxa is advocating.
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power7
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Could be. But I would look at your video and count the number of shot you missed and the number of shots your hitting partner missed during the practice. It is a very simple benchmark. Control of the ball is not just a 1 sided affair in TT. If you hit it in such a way that your hitting partner cannot control the placement back to you, then I think a major point of training is missed. Your not trying to beat the coach. You're trying to learn to control the ball. You can smash and kill the ball anytime. But most TT player train with 70% or less of their full power to keep the rallies going so they can master a particular stroke using various spin. So you might look at training videos of pros training and want to hit as hard as that. But in reality that's really only 70% or less of their full power. Not to mention their hitting partners are also hitting back with much less than their full power, with more consistency and control as well. As for comments about multi-ball, all pros do multi-ball as warm up in training. Doing multi-ball is not a downgrade or something too basic. Just count the misses, who missed in your video, and number of hits in a rally. Use that as a bench mark. If you find them acceptable, then don't do as much multi-ball. Everyone has their own opinions on training.
Edited by power7 - 06/24/2012 at 1:53am |
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extraSpin
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Awesome compilation and a must read for every 1000-2000 level player.
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Leshxa
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I would like to revive this thread because I met Andy at a Westchester Today. I am very excited because....
Ta da na na: DRUMROLL! I watched first hand how Andy beat a high 1800 and a 1972 in a row!!! Go Andy! Nice playing. His spin gave his opponents loads of trouble. I'm glad the training worked regardless of the equipment! Unfortunately I have not seen his other matches, but its a big leap from mid 1650s. The higher rating will be harder to keep, but experiencing the way one can play is a sure step of reassurance of improvement and the signs of ability to play at a higher level. Nice job! |
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bayttplayer
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Just my opinion. I would suggest you keep T05 if you don’t might the price. Because 1600 player just start to develop looping technique. Once your strokes finalize is difficult to change, and your strokes is based on your equipment especially the hardness of rubber to developed. I have been using Chinese rubber and did try many different rubbers just won’t get the same feeling, basically is no way to switch other rubber to me. I would suggest you use some soften blade you can have better feel when you make a mistake, maybe ZLF or even some wood blade? |
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