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water base glue affecting speed |
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alphapong
Silver Member Joined: 05/11/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 622 |
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Posted: 01/08/2013 at 6:04pm |
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A friend of mine who is a very high level player (top 20 in the U.S., and was national team for his country) insists that a certain major brand of water base glue makes the rubber play much faster than other similar looking glues. In my opinions the glue is the same as that from a couple other manufactures, as it comes in identical packaging, just a different label.
He say everyone in his country knows that brand X make your rubber play faster while brand Y gives better control. I told him I think it is all in his head, that water glue is water glue. Since there is no VOC the speed should all be very much the same. Have you noticed any performance difference (not adhesion) between different water based glues from the major manufacturers? |
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Imago
Premier Member Joined: 07/19/2009 Location: Sofia Status: Offline Points: 5897 |
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He is right. The more natural latex there is in the w/b glue, the faster it is.
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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It's not likely to be noticable with a single layer though. DHS used to recommend 10 layers for their #15 glue, for a 'speed glue effect'. If you did apply multiple layers you could indeed feel it to be more bouncy and faster, but with a single layer (unless it's very thick) perhaps only a professional could feel the very minor difference.
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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This is probably why Nittaku Finezip is so popular with professional players. Super elastic.
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vutiendat1337
Gold Member Joined: 10/25/2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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What about Tear Mender? I usually put around 4 - 5 layers tops. I am not even sure if it helps, lol
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viktorovich
Super Member Joined: 04/08/2009 Status: Offline Points: 294 |
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Distinctions are more visible after glue polymerization ( 2...3 days).
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I am very skeptical about this.
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bluebucket
Platinum Member Joined: 02/20/2011 Location: 16 Status: Offline Points: 2882 |
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You guys need some glue education.
1) Glue porous sponges until the glue is flat and shiny covering the pores or the sponge will twist and slide on the blade (this is bad) 2) For tacky rubbers its only about building a layer of glue for extra spring and performance, I find 6-8 layers of Haifu waterbase is enough despite the instructions calling for up to ten layers. Even 6 gives a much more dynamic rubber than 2 layers. I only use two for testing a rubber. I never setup for a tournament with less than 6 layers. Gluing with waterbase is a big deal, you need to get it right or you may as well stick to VOCs which IMHO have a performance disadvantage over well glued waterbase |
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AcudaDave
Gold Member Joined: 11/02/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1859 |
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You guys can keep your Tear Mender. I tried to buy a bottle of it a while back but all the bottles were dried up. It seems they sat on the shelf sooooo long they dried up. Finally found a bottle that wasn't completely dried up, but it looked thicker than normal water-based glue so I just gave it up and bought another bottle of WBG. I did notice that WBG has more effect on speed than rubber cement. I glued a sheet of SP on my friends blade and he loved the speed and pop he had with the SP. A couple weeks later it was coming off around the edges so he peeled it off and glued it back on with rubber cement. He played with it for 2 wks but kept complaining to me how it played slower and it didn't have the pop it had. I took it off and glued it back on with WBG and Bam...the speed/pop were back. We were surprised how much better it played with WBG. Have always stuck with it since.
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Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade
Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
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alphapong
Silver Member Joined: 05/11/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 622 |
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He does not put many layers, so I am skeptical that such a thin layer would make a difference, unless there is some other ingredient that affects the sponge. Some of you who put 10 layers, are likely making things faster mostly from an extra 10 grams of mass. I will give you 2 of the glues that he commented on. 1 was Butterfly Free Chack and the other was Donic Vario Clean. They both come in the same packaging, appear identical and seem to come from the same factory. He says one is much faster that the other. Anyone ever compared these 2? |
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Imago
Premier Member Joined: 07/19/2009 Location: Sofia Status: Offline Points: 5897 |
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Haifu WBG in the big bottles is too thin - that's why 8-10 layers are needed.
I guess, Bty is the slower one.
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assiduous
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yes, haifu is too thin. I ended up mixing it with the Tearmender bottle. Mixed absolutely perfectly. Been using that last year, still plenty left. Feels very lively first week or so. Not too strong though, will NOT hold curled tuned rubber.
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AcudaDave
Gold Member Joined: 11/02/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1859 |
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I've used both Donic Vario Clean and BTY Free Chack. I didn't notice much difference in terms of speed/performance, but I did notice that the BTY glue had more of a citrus smell.
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Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade
Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1020 |
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that is a wonderful idea; I still have a bottle of tearmender and the bottle of wbg I bought to test (same amount) is too liquid -very much like water- so I'll do the exact same.
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vutiendat1337
Gold Member Joined: 10/25/2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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but then, with most WBGs, it's a HUGE pain in the butt to remove the glue residue. Granted, I only have experience with Free Chack and Donic Formula. Rubber cement is easy to use, cheap, quite easy to remove residue but I don't like how it peels off quickly. Tear Mender is the best glue I have used so far, the trick is to use a COSMETIC FOAM, best ever.
However, the last time I tried to put more layers using TM, I accidentally poured too much glue and after it dried up, the rubber surface is slightly uneven. If you can maintain thin layer after thin layer, it's great. Can't say I noticed any speed glue effect but whatevs |
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neutronbomb
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2011 Location: NE Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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For me, the best way to get a thick piece of latex is to pour the tear mender into a flat non stick pan and run a heat gun over it for a bit. Then put a thin layer onto the sponge and glue this "latex sheet" onto it. Saves the time of endless layers with the sponge and blow dryer. Now you can also apply tuner to the latex. This extra layer seems to allow you to add a bit of tuner to chinese rubbers without the topsheet and sponge separating.
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batt
Super Member Joined: 10/08/2011 Status: Offline Points: 138 |
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alphapong, Which glue, Vario Clean or Free Chack, is this player (Zaman Molla?) claiming is much faster than the other?
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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I am skeptical too. Rubber glues do not generate energy. The rubber in the glue absorbs energy and then returns some of it.
I use fairly thin layers of water based glue ( Tearmender ). If one glue is faster than the other it is because it absorbs less energy or returns a higher percentage of the energy it absorbed. BTW, if I were going to try to estimate which glue was the fastest I would make a little ball about 1/2 to 1 inch in diameter from each of the two glues. I would then see which one bounces the best. I bet none would bounce very well. If anyone tries this then estimate what percentage of the initial height the balls were dropped that the balls bounce back too. Think about it guys. Where does the energy really come from? Don't perpetuate myths. Investigate for yourselves. Do the experiment. |
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bluebucket
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Superballs made from a good wbg glue do bounce (a lot). Especially balls made from Haifu glue.... Try it
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tt4me
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But it won't bounce higher than the height it is dropped from. Rubber glues do not make paddles faster. |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1020 |
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I have not experimented enough with WBG yet (just started with copydex and I glued 4 setups). What I remember with paper cement is the following: with a very thick coat of glue, we can experience a sling shot effect from the bottom of the sponge; let's talk about that sling shot effect: it can come from the tender topsheet --> at contact. the ball grabs the rubber and a piece of the topsheet is elongated and acts like a sling shot when the stored energy is released. With a very thick coat of paper cement the whole base may move and move back, acting like a sling shot as well.
The person who gave me a bottle of Copydex reports a catapult effect that is considerable; "lots of elasticity" is the exact quote and, right or wrong, I interpreted it as the sling shot effect. I have not tried yet and I am curious. Did somebody try to apply -say- 12 to 20 coats of WBG and observe the difference at play? |
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Roger Stillabower
Silver Member Joined: 02/17/2011 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 803 |
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All I know that if I apply 4 or more layers of TM or Haifu wbg in thin layers that my rubbers feel more lively.
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Shifter
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I would be very cautious at using any more of a WBG than is necessary for adhesion at least on the sponge. On the blade it doesn't matter. Thus is especially with large-pored sponges like Tenergy. In my opinion, the WBG glue seeps into the pores, then solidifies, and this degrades performance, both speed and spin. This is less of a problem with the more viscous glues, like Donic Blue Thunder, for example. It may be less of a problem with Tearmender because it dries so fast, but I would still avoid it because Tearmender is also quite liquid when you first apply it. This is my experience, anyway.
As for one WBG being faster than another, the chances are almost all of the ones sold by European TT companies are made in the same factory and are essentially the same, only about two variants available -- a viscous version recently introduced and the original version. I have used most of them and have never seen any difference at all. I'm not a 2500 player or anything like that, but I'm good enough to be able to tell the difference if there was one. For Chinese glues though, could be true for all I know, I have not tried any of them. But I am very skeptical. The way old speed glues worked was by expanding topsheet and sponge to different degrees, thereby producing a tension on the top sheet. I have never seen a WBG do that. Adding a "bouncy" layer between the blade and rubber just doesn't seem like it could possibly have enough effect relative to the sponge to be noticeable. Edit: I forgot I have a bottle of Haifu WBG in a large blue bottle that I bought on advice of someone here. It is so runny it is a true pain to use. You need a hairdryer. It had no noticeable change in performance. I haven't used it in a couple of years. |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1020 |
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I would argue once the minimum glue required for adherence is applied on the sponge, any additional layer there will not sink through that 1st solidified one.
One additional layer might not give a noticeable effect; what about 10 more? just curious... It's worth trying after what roger wrote above. The effect would be given by the sponge sliding horizontally, parallel to the blade, making those layers of wbg act as a sling shot hand in hand with the topsheet. the timing might be tricky though as the 2 sling shot effects from both the tender topsheet and the wbg super thick layer might not always work ideally in a timely manner given the force put into the stroke. An analogy would be a fh loop unloaded too late after the legs/hips work, or too early before they have thrown all what they can. Here we want the sponge to come back right before or at the same time the topsheet does. If the sponge comes back too quick while the topsheet is still in its back swing, it might cancel out the topsheet sling shot effect; same if the topsheet comes back too quick while the sponge is still in its back swinging step or has not started to come back. Anyway I am borderline nitpicking here... |
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Baal
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Makes some sense too.
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Roger Stillabower
Silver Member Joined: 02/17/2011 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 803 |
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WBG does not get solid when dried, it is elastic....
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Shifter
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viktorovich
Super Member Joined: 04/08/2009 Status: Offline Points: 294 |
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..." WBG does not get solid when dried, it is elastic....".
Depends on glue and time. Edited by viktorovich - 12/25/2013 at 5:11am |
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szikorz
Member Joined: 09/05/2011 Location: EU Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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I have seen Ma Lin taking off the glue from his blue sponge (picture was somewhere here at the forum - probably the pro´s equipment) and there was a minimum of 2 mm ůayer of the dry VOC glue there. I assume, there must be something on that, not to mention, that my personal experience confirm that, the performance of the covering changes with the amount of glue on the sponge.
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peter79
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I notice adding more layers of water based glue, makes the dwell time longer, ball become slower...
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asifgunz
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Brought her back to life. Aye?
Plus if you dont seal your blade, slowly the wbg slows down your blade. If i put 3+ layers of tearmender it makes a much louder sound compared to 3 layers of wbg. |
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