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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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If he hits the ball at the correct timing point, his grip will alter itself for the better
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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I find all this talk about the "correct" place to hit the ball in relationship to the body to be a little silly. Where you hit the ball in relation to the body is entirely dependent on whether or not you are playing the ball cross court or down the line. If you are playing the ball down the line, the contact point is deeper in the hitting zone.
Here's Ma Long playing a 1 FH, 1 BH transition into his opponent's BH. Is he striking the ball in front of his body? No, because he's playing the ball down the line. You can see this pretty clearly from the side-on view. Edited by Ringer84 - 07/18/2015 at 12:45pm |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Hitting in front of the body makes a big difference. If you can transfer weight to the front foot at the same time much more power. However, I've had have issues with the correct grip. Perhaps as was suggested above "contact point" should be my focus and not the grip.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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WeebleWobble
Super Member Joined: 07/07/2012 Status: Offline Points: 490 |
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I'd say 1500.
You seem to be moving backwards often for no reason. |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Yah ma long is contacting in front of the body because his trunk is rotating. Think of your two shoulders as creating a triangle. When your playing arm goes back your left shoulder rotates as well because you should be turning your trunk. Contact is always in the front tip of the triangle, doesn't matter cross court or down the line.. You ask any top player or any competent coach they will tell you the same. What is silly is that this is even being debated; I mean this is fh looping 101. Also, unless you are holding the racket really unorthodoxly, grip has nothing to do with not being able to contact the ball in front of the body.
Edited by Tk5 - 07/18/2015 at 1:20pm |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Wow shots fired. If you are contacting the ball to the side of the body and close to the table that means you are standing too far from the ball. In that case you are not getting the ball on its decline. If you have a normal body position and are waiting for the ball to get to the side of your body most likely you are getting the ball after the top of its bounce which of course means you are contacting late thus giving your opponent more time. So what is your rating FATT? Why single me out? I guess APW doesn't understand the game either since he said "yes exactly right".
Edited by Tk5 - 07/18/2015 at 2:49pm |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Here is a picture of Ma Long's point of contact for a down-the-line loop into his opponent's BH.
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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People can make their own decisions about whether or not he is hitting the ball in front of his body or to the side of his body. A visual image is more useful in these situations. I personally would call this hitting the ball to the SIDE of the body or even slightly behind the body, waiting for the ball to come deeper into the hitting zone (as BH man is describing).
But, whatever... this argument is more about perspective and semantics than anything. And you can obviously manipulate the wrist slightly in order to change the direction of your shot, regardless of your contact point.
Edited by Ringer84 - 07/18/2015 at 1:42pm |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Exactly. Look at his shoulders, the ball is in between them. If he was contacting to the side that would mean the ball would be parallel to his right shoulder.
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Right, I gotcha. You are looking at the player as a rotating unit and describing the point of contact as "side" or "back" depending on where in the rotation the player hits the ball. But this is not what BH- Man was saying. Imagine Ma Long stretching his arm forward and reaching for the ball and contacting it very close to the table's endline - this is what BH-Man is saying NOT to do and what he means by hitting the ball too far in front of the body. Regardless of how you view it, the takeaway here is to not be impatient and reach forward at the ball and sap your power.
Edited by Ringer84 - 07/18/2015 at 1:58pm |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Well if he is trying to say not to contact his fh off the bounce than that is correct. If the ball doesn't have much pace then it will be a shorter ball which means you have to extend more forward.
Edited by Tk5 - 07/18/2015 at 2:07pm |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Also looking at the video again that's not his contact point. You are a split second too early.
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Right, exactly. If the ball came short, he would have to reach forward in order to even hit the ball at all. This is why a lot of the posters on this forum like V-Griper, BH-Man, and Nextlevel are constantly stressing the importance of in-and-out footwork and the ability to judge the depth of the incoming shot rather than the more popular side-to-side footwork drills (Faulkenberg, FH attack from all over the table, etc.). Ma Long doesn't suck like I do, so he is able to perfectly judge the incoming depth of every ball, which allows him to always hit the ball with optimum contact point and not have to reach forward and sap his power.
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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That may be true. It's difficult to get a perfectly timed screenshot on a video that's only in 480p. It's pretty close to his true contact point, though.
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Na you don't suck ringer. I have seen your videos and your results at the MDTTC tournaments. You are an up and coming player. Keep fighting!
Edited by Tk5 - 07/18/2015 at 2:28pm |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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That split second is important though. In the picture he hasn't brought his trunk forward. His contact will be while he is going forward with his trunk.
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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The most important reason for hitting the ball in front of your body has nothing to do with technique.
I don't know enough about Ma Long's situation to make a judgement, but i learned long ago that hitting the ball in front of you keeps the ball, the table and the player all in view, it makes you quicker, covers the crossover point more easily and enables you to track your opponent. It might be different at top world level, (Its not) but I guess not many of us are gonna get there. Don't get obsessed with technique perfection guys, as long as it is solid and falls within the boundaries of what constitutes an acceptable level of power and consistency, it can be part of a quality players game. Have a look at world class players who don't have what is currently perceived to be a 'perfect technique' ( most of them) and ask yourself how they ever managed to get so good. Kreanga Anyone ? or how about Schlager I wish I had their technique flaws.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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APW46, I know that you are a much higher level player than I am (just like Tk), so I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you're wrong. But let me ask you a few questions, if you don't mind: 1) Have you ever videotaped your FH down the line from the side camera angle, similar to the Ma Long picture I posted above? The reason I ask is because I used to think I was contacting the ball in front of my body when I viewed my loop from the front and back camera angles, but when I looked at it from dead side on I realized that my contact point was later than I thought it was. 2) If you really are hitting down the line shots in front of your body, can you explain how you manipulate your wrist in order to achieve this? How is your swing different from Simon Gerada, who also contacts the ball late and to the side of his body (side using my definition, not tks) to go down the line? Although it might sound like I'm disagreeing with you, I often find that I need to think about hitting the ball out in front when playing forehands. It's just when I look at myself on tape I find that's not what is actually happening.
Edited by Ringer84 - 07/18/2015 at 8:11pm |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Yah good point. Technique is not the subject it is more about having the right approach to the shot. By crossover point do you mean the cross-step movement from playing a step around fh to a fh in the fh side or corner. If so, yes it makes that shot more effective because when you turn and play a quality fh to the opponents bh or middle you are almost always going to get a ball back to the bh side of the table, so then you know you can sit on the bh corner and play another strong fh. However, if your opponent is really strong and plays your quality fh turn down the line you will have less time because by taking the ball earlier you are also getting a return from opponent back quicker, making covering the wide fh more difficult. However, if it is a strong fh step around you hit, not only is the likelihood of the opponent changing directions lower, the likelihood of the opponent changing directions and playing a quality block or counterspin is even lower.
Edited by Tk5 - 07/18/2015 at 7:52pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Ringer,
Think in terms of the golden point (elbow) and optimal contact point theory. What tk5 and APW46 are saying is really correct. It is possible to be a good player with late contact (in fact, many high level Nigerians are notorious for doing it) but it is suboptimal. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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So then you disagree with Simon Gerada's video that I posted above or think it is suboptimal? The down the line forehand that Gerada demonstrates in that video is what I am considering "late" contact. Edited by Ringer84 - 07/18/2015 at 10:45pm |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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You turn your shoulders more. Not sure what you are asking me to disagree with. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Right. You turn your shoulders more to enable a later contact and to hit the ball deeper in the hitting zone. Edit: Again, I think it's just semantics. If you don't think that Gerada's down the line FH is in any way suboptimal, then we are agreeing and not disagreeing. What Gerada is advcocating is what I've been trying to say for the entire thread - if you want to go down the line, you turn your shoulders more and hit the ball later... in contrast with hitting the ball farther out in front and laying your wrist back to fade the ball. Edited by Ringer84 - 07/18/2015 at 11:00pm |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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The stroke is in front of you. It is at the same point optimally relative to the restof the body. There are other suboptimal techniques (and I am notorious for using quite a few of them), but nothing that changes the main point. The point is that if you turn your shoulders more, you are moving your golden point and your optimal strike zone as the rotation changes the front of your body when you contact the ball. This might be semantics to you, but it makes more sense to understand the technique.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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I agree with all of this. WHEW! Edited by Ringer84 - 07/18/2015 at 11:16pm |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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Simon Gerada is using a delay in timing point to direct the ball, rather than keeping the same timing point and moving his torso in line with where he is directing the ball. This makes his attacking stroke far harder to read directionally for his opponent, however he is up to the table and using incoming power. He is demonstrating how to use variations in technique and timing to deceive your opponent. |
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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This. |
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