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Would this theory work in TT? |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Found this video of Nadal's racquet speed. It shows clearly how he goes from very slow to very fast - basically accelerating the racquet head to contact. So I think that's what I'm getting from this thread. It's all about accelerating the racquet.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Jrscatman,
In terms of TT applicability, the best player commenting (APW46) gave you a lot to chew on. Spin is a more important component of table tennis than the other racquet sports so any physics in TT should really be more vector oriented than scalar oriented. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1020 |
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To answer your question about timing the ball I use my favorite quote in tt: "bounce with the ball"; I like it because it contains so much information in a funny and so short quote; it's about rhythm (tempo) and dancing (fluidity). It is rare to stumble on such a short piece of learning/teaching material from which we can go on and on to so many directions. I actually found it here and at the club at the very same time: It is about crouching as the ball descends on our side after clearing the net and pushing on the legs as it rises from the bounce; timely work from the legs! "bounce with the ball" also allows to underline the importance of playing the other person, not the ball; I encourage people to be aware of the body motion on the other side of the table because from there the knowledge of the incoming ball's trajectory is a side effect and that gives an advantage; having a virtual curtain on the end line on the other side and watching the ball coming out of it is a big loss of information; as I heard here in another context "it takes 2 to tango" . |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Thanks NextLevel - I'll go back review his comments - I have a one track mind - so I was focused whether racquet pausing would work or not. Now, that's out of the way - I can try learn about the other things people mentioned in this thread. fatt: I like the bouncing with the ball idea as well. Good way to stay in sync with the ball.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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Sorry been away for weekend playing TT, so I didn't get a chance to finish. In the clips shown above, the players are Drilling, any pause in the context of their stroke production is within the tempo of the drill and part of their technique. In open Match play, on the third ball or in open play, a pause before execution is primarily to delay directional intentions, at a level where the opponent is extremely good at reading them, to produce a fatal blow. This is where a player cashes in on the time he has bought himself with his preceding shot if he gets a weaker return. If it is a third ball attack, he has bought time by serving so as to limit the response, so he can reasonably pre-determine the return, or the use of deceit to produce a mistake, or quite often both.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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And why should he? He's teaching badminton.
No. Get out a dictionary. His usage is perfectly correct given the context.
Good thing you aren't teaching badminton.
I strongly suspect that the form he shows has plenty to do with generating more racquet head speed and a more powerful shot. The stop, per se, may not be "the" reason, but it certainly may be part of a very good process for increasing the power of your badminton shot. Keep in mind that the main teaching method that he employed was not verbal instruction. It was physical demonstration. Edited by wturber - 11/11/2013 at 11:07am |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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Jay, do you believe the pause generates more power?
On this one issue would be right. The coach should put his body into it like a tennis player does when serving if he wants more power. Adding the arm swing to the body moving forward would result in a faster racquet speed.
The stop is not the reason for extra power. It is the speed of the racquet. Hinting or suggesting otherwise is not helping. I have said above having the time to stop will generally result in a better result. It just won't generate power. Why do I have to keep repeating the same thing over and over? I don't see how anybody can ignore the speed after impact formula. It is a combination of the conservation of momentum and the COR formulas. It isn't hard to understand. If anybody can refute the speed after impact formula I will listen.
It is a misleading demonstration. It led jrscatman astray and has resulted in this long thread that is a waste of time after my first post. If you want to advance the science of TT then experiments should be done like finding the speed of Nadal's racquet. That video is good. Does the path of the paddle surprise anybody? It sure looks a lot different from some of the guesses I see above. The stroke path is useful because now one can see where in the stroke Nadal's racquet is moving the fastest. The same can be done for TT. "Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see". John Lennon |
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Spin83
Member Joined: 01/28/2013 Status: Offline Points: 95 |
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Imo ''pause'' in stroke is nothing but short delay you take to correctly execute the stroke depending on the situation. That delay doesn't give you power, power comes from good stroke.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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That is obvious but does the pause enable you to get a better stroke, possibly because of enhanced timing? Or are those of us who can't explain why a pause might enable you to get a better stroke going to gloat about the fact that we understand Physics because we cannot gloat about our badminton expertise? Edited by NextLevel - 11/11/2013 at 2:38pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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You don't need to. You seem to be hung up on making this a physics discussion - which wasn't what the badminton coach was discussing. He was demonstrating a stroke technique that results in a player making a more powerful shot. He wasn't trying to explain "why." He was showing, "how." The first definition from the Merriam Webster online dictionary for "power." a (1) : ability to act or produce an effect (2) : ability to get extra-base hits (3) : capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/power This is not the definition you keep using. We don't get there until definition 6c. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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Spin83
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For me its footwork and good technique that gives you better stroke not enhanced timing. But then again enhanced timing comes from good footwork yes?
Again pause in shot wont give you any advantage, make you better player, make your shots better if you dont use correct technique ment for table tennis strokes and this badmi and tennis videos and all this stuff is pure bs. Never heard a player who plays tennis trying to implement some stuff from tt. Did you? But i see some players who play tennis and use tennis strokes in tt..its awful trust me. |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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Actually he is doing that. As far as his actual ability to generate racket head speed he is doing everything right. Look closely and you can see his weight shift forward and a smooth coordination of his joints in sequence from his legs to the wrist snap. He is not doing the entire thing either because he's older and probably 30lbs overweight but he knows how to do it. The arm swing is much tighter and smaller mainly because the mass of a badminton racket is considerably less that a tennis racket. Especially pro rackets that have lead weights added to them. A badminton racket weighs about the same as TT paddle, 80g to 95g unstrung. A pro tennis racket will start at around 320g on the low end and go to around 350g on the high end. Not only that the weight is mainly added to the head changing the CG distribution. So all though the stroke mechanics are nearly the same they are necessarily going to look a little different. Same reason you don't use a Tennis stroke in TT. Just because he is using inaccurate terms or doesn't know the correct way to explain what he is doing in terms of physics does not mean he isn't doing it right. This happens allot actually, especially in situations involving biomechanics in sports. Edit
Edited by V-Griper - 11/11/2013 at 3:17pm |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Next time you play TT - try delaying one of your forehands and see if it has any effects. I play both Tennis & TT - I find the sports are complementary - some things from TT help my Tennis and some things from Tennis help my TT. I play both sports at a recreational level - if you're an Olympic level or National level player - perhaps you might not want to mix sports. Actually, I also play Badminton - which is how all this got started. Another important lesson in this thread is when an accomplished, international level coach says something - chances are very good he/she might know what he/she is saying - maybe our knowledge or understanding of physics might not be able explain it but that doesn't mean it's not true.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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And if you give a mouse a cookie, chances are, he's going to want some milk to go with it.
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DHS 301
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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Because jrscatman seemed to be looking for a physics answer in his second post. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Correct timing is part of enhanced technique, but it's all semantics. Yes, tennis strokes for TT, especially the backhand, and tennis movement are awful because of their size, but there are still tennis skills that translate to TT and vice versa, especially ball control and spin manipulation.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Maybe I'm being too nitpicky on semantics, but I think few tennis skills translate to TT. Some of the concepts translate, but the actual skills - how to move, stroke mechanics, etc. - don't really translate at all. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1020 |
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the only comparisons with tennis that popup are the tt step in on a fh/bh push with the right foot (right handed player) v. the same step in in fh/bh slice stroke in tennis; also the hips rotation and weight transfer from the right to left foot for a fh drive but that equally applies to a golf swing or a baseball hit. borrowing from other sports may be useful to get a different perspective in order to understand our sport's mechanics but direct applications can be dangerously misleading.
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Agree with fatt - I am finding a lot similarities between the various sports. I find it helpful to incorporate various techniques from one sport to the other - but that's just me. Others, complain one sport ruins their other sport - there are tennis players who refuse to play tt for the fear of ruining their tennis stroke and vice versa.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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