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$49 fee for USATT membership |
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NextLevel
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At Westchester, they advance players with estimated ratings all the time and they often underestimate ratings so the players end up winning events they are too high to play in.
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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We have an unrated event in every tournament. We try very hard to avoid three person RRs. If a player is unrated, I now charge $10 if he enters a rated event as opposed to the standard $14. The $4 discount is what I calculated as approximately the "even odds" value of the opportunities lost by not being allowed to advance (we advance two). So what, he was charged $20 for one ratings based event in your tournament? We have two Giant RR events each year that give a great value to unrated players - and they can advance and win because it is not a ratings based event. He didn't pay $76 just to play two matches unless he decides to not play again for the next 12 months. He could have played for "only" $37. That's the whole point of having a one time pass. At a Phoenix tournament he could have played in the U-1250 for $27 and probably would have had three matches. I encourage untrated players to play in the unrated event and at least one ratings based event. If he did that, could play in two events with the chance to advance and win in one for $41 and would probably play six matches at a minimum - possibly more depending on how many people enter the events. You can lay things at the feet of the USATT if you want, but a good part of what a player pays is decided by the people running the tournament. |
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Jay Turberville
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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He could have paid just $37. He could have entered more events and in order to receive more value for either his one time pass or his membership fee as well as the Tournament processing fee. The event organizers could offer a discount to unrated players playing in rated events. They could have larger round robins. I'm a TD and I started offering a discount to unrated players in rated events partially due to issues like this that were raised online. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I'm not so sure. For local tournaments, I pay to the USATT a grand total of $84 a year in order to play in five USATT sanctioned tournaments. That doesn't seem outrageous to me. Heck, I pay $30 just in gas to drive to those tournaments. I would certainly like the fees to be lower. But I don't see the current structure as being a particularly large burden - especially considering the small size of our sport and the fact that a lot of what the USATT does is done by volunteers. If they had to pay everybody, it would be far more expensive. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Yeah. So the rated player doesn't advance because someone can't estimate ratings accurately. Is that somehow more fair? I don't think so. I do think discounts to unrated players are fair because their upside is limited - there is less value in the event for them. I guess I just don't get it. Everybody might be faced with having to play in just one tournament where they can't advance in ratings based events. Heck, in a four person RR you only have a 25% chance of advancing anyway. And if you advanced as an unrated player, it would probably be because somebody estimated your rating too high. Even in our tournaments (advance two), your odds are only 50/50. It isn't that big of a burden. So you deal with it once (maybe) and then, for the rest of your ENTIRE LIFE - you don't have to suffer the injustice EVER AGAIN!!! |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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j-bo
Super Member Joined: 03/23/2012 Location: Louisiana Status: Offline Points: 454 |
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Think you're missing the point of having lower fees. If you have lower fees, you should attract NEW players. Once new players come in and see how much fun it is, you hope to RETAIN them for years to come. As it is now, the retainage of new USATT tournament players is probably dismally low. Why? Cost most probably. If you ask around most clubs ( I know it is for ours), the number one reason for not playing a tournament is the $49 USATT membership fee, plus the $7 processing/rating fee...and only have 2 tournaments in the area per year. Otherwise, they need to pay for travel/lodging on top of those fees. Sure..most on here don't mind it, because they are already in love with playing in tournaments or see the purpose to benefit the USATT, etc. etc. But.. TT needs NEW BLOOD! We are having the same trouble in another sport too. Getting new people to participate and retaining those that are already in it. In this day and age, cost is everything and the "cost to benefit ratio" is what people are weighing a lot more to spend their disposable income on. Edited by j-bo - 11/18/2013 at 1:39pm |
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AcudaDave
Gold Member Joined: 11/02/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1859 |
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I do like the option of giving a discount to un-rated players since they won't be able to advance. I never really thought about it, but if we could do something like that for future tournaments that would probably be a good think to do.
I also think it would probably be better for 1st timers with no rating to just purchase the 1-time playing permit (which I think is $10). That way they are not paying $49 for just playing 2 matches. After the tournament they will have a rating and the next time they enter they will be able to advance if they win the group. This makes more sense to me. Of course they will have to pay the $49 membership for the next tournament, but at least they will be able to advance. The other thing to consider is the tournament format. We usually alternate 1 tournament with rated events with giant RRs. Paying the $49 fee for playing in a giant RR is not so bad if you get to play 7-8 matches. If the tournament is a rated event (like ours was) and they only have a group of 3-4 players and won't be able to advance then they should probably get a discount. I think that's a good idea wturber. I realize you can't make everyone happy, but as j-bo points out...we need New Blood...so anything we can do like giving discounts for 1st timers would really help.
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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I think the main problem for getting more people into serious recreational TT is that the country is too big. 8,000 tournament players in an area of 3.7 million square miles is pretty sparse. Leave out Alaska and it is still bad. Someone earlier mentioned cost of gas to drive to a tournament. I have two places with regular events I can go to, both about 250-miles roundtrip. The gas each time is about as much as the annual USATT fee. And it is a 13-hour day leaving at 6am (getting up before 5) every time I play. Or I can stay in a hotel overnight for another $100. Either way the $49 annual membership fee is not my biggest obstacle to playing tournaments. It wouldn't matter either if the tournaments were unsanctioned, I would still have the travel time and expense. I know that puts a lot of people off.
And I live in south Florida where I am lucky enough to have two nice clubs within day trip range. In the midwest and south it is worse. |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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No, I got the point. My point simply is that I don't think the overall reality is quite as your example suggests. The $49 a year USATT membership is an impediment mostly for the players who only want to play one or two times a year. And if that's your standard situation, then yes, the membership is an impediment because these players can't amortize the membership cost over as many events. If your situation is typical, then you may have a point. If not, I think that paying the yearly membership mostly impedes just the players who aren't as likely to be a "regular customer" anyway. And furthermore, the club needs to deal with insurance. Many tournaments may not be able to completely enjoy the entire benefits of cutting out that cost since they would need to acquire insurance somehow. And finally, if the USATT doesn't collect membership fees, how does it survive? |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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I left out something important from post above, sorry.
I have to drive 250 miles R/T to those clubs just for serious open play, or a quality lesson. Once I get there it is cheap enough, but the effort just to play or learn is enormous. I do it because I am stupid. But if I could still play tennis like I did before a back injury I would be out on one of the plentiful municipal courts around here with one of the many local players of all levels, and forget TT. Tennis is easy to get to play. Other sports are fairly easy to get to play, even team sports like softball and basketball. TT is really hard. USATT should be encouraging local governments to spend some of their shrinking recreation budgets on TT. It is cheaper than other sports on facilities and maintenance, so it should be a fairly easy sell. If it was easy to play low-level competitive TT (one step above the basement game) more people would play. USATT either has no money to market TT to local government, Makes no effort to market TT that way, or has tried and failed.
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geardaddy
Super Member Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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This whole thing parallels another hobby of mine, i.e. cycling. USA cycling has $60/year license fee that is required to participate in a Road/Track/Cyclocross/Mountain Biking sanctioned event. In addition, race promoters have to pay USA cycling fees to run a sanctioned event. Cyclists ask all the same questions as to whether they get something in return for paying these fees.
The "benefits" for cyclists really comes in two forms: 1) Insurance coverage in case you are hurt in a race, and 2) qualifying points that you can earn with your results that would allow you to "upgrade" and be able to participate in certain races. For the average Joe Schmoe racer that is never going to go pro, the qualifying points thing is rather meaningless as there is really no barrier to being able to find a race that is competitive and challenging. There has been regional rebellion against USA cycling, where race promoters have broken away from USA cycling and used their own local organizations to run the races instead. However, USA cycling has fought back against this by enforcing penalties on riders (the higher level riders) if they participate in non-sanctioned events. USA cycling and USATT are very similar in that their charter is really to create successful athletes for international levels. They both get funding from the US Olympic Committee (USOC) to accomplish this. But, it seems they don't drop a dime on any real development of athletes until they have already reached a high level. Below that level they don't seem to provide any real resources, rather they just provide some guidelines and leave it up to local organizations to foster players with their effort and their own funding. So this subscription model that both USA Cycling and USATT employ is a way to get a predictable funding base from the general population. What you get out of it is really that you are supporting development of high level players, and that's really about it. I can see why they would be hestitant to lower the $49/year fee, as I think they believe that overall the total number of $$$ would be less if they did so. So, I agree that it fails at actual development of talent at the grass roots level. Where is youth development really happening? Where is the effort to get new players into the game? I'd like to better understand how it is done differently in other places in terms of more successful development of new and/or young players.
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AcudaDave
Gold Member Joined: 11/02/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1859 |
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Jay...unfortunately a lot of the players at my club will only play in 1-2 tournaments a year and that's when it becomes an obstacle. I do like your idea of giving a discount to newbies that can't advance and will suggest this going forward for tournaments that have rated events where they will only play 2-3 matches. In that case a 1-time playing permit is a better option. Maybe the USATT could look at something like charging $25 per tournament and then if you've played in 2 tournaments for that year you wouldn't have to pay for anymore.
BRS also has a point about having to drive so far to play in tournaments, but that's not really the problem I had in getting local newbies to sign up or in getting people that only play in 1-2 tournaments a year. These players just didn't see much value in paying $49 for a membership. |
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Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade
Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
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j-bo
Super Member Joined: 03/23/2012 Location: Louisiana Status: Offline Points: 454 |
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Who said not to collect membership fee's? If $49 is a deterrent to A LOT of the gen. pop.......then lower the price. The object is to build a bigger base of TT memberships. The more members in your base, the more possibilities they will play in multiple tournaments, thus making up for the slight reduction in initial membership fee. However, it is also MORE LIKELY that they will return as a member year after year, thus retaining memberships. Anyway...it is what it is. FWIW, I hope they don't do the stupid thing and raise membership fee's trying to recoup those fees they lose by those that leave each year. |
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4952 |
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I don't mind the membership fees and tournament fees. I just don't see a ROI for these fees. All I see are the Heads of Committee going to these out of country tournaments. Where is the media coverage??
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j-bo
Super Member Joined: 03/23/2012 Location: Louisiana Status: Offline Points: 454 |
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You don't mind the fee's...but joe the club player obviously does, as does a lot of people who join for a year or maybe 2. They are not being retained. It doesn't matter to those that have TT in their blood.
Numbers? Can only go by the ratings page: Over the last year, there were 7147 players. Of that, the current number of players are 5341. Over the past 2 years, there were 10592 players. Of that, the current number of players is 6006. Over 5 year period, there were 20036 players. Current number of players over this period is 6645. Obviously.. something is wrong with the system. Lowering fee's could be a step in the right direction to retain those players that aren't rejoining. Get sponsors to donate a coupon every month to members. $10% off, $10 off, $25 off of product or something in that realm would go a long way IMO. Magazine..make it online only. That eliminates the cost of printing and mailing. There really needs to be a grass roots USATT committee to get schools to institute table tennis programs. What I see the best bet, is to start at the middle school level and high schools. The costs of startup are not that astronomical, and once the tables are purchased (maybe can get companies to cut great discount rates too) the cost to keep the program are minimal in the grand scheme of things. This will get more people involved in TT, which will increase membership into USATT. I'm sure there are others who have better suggestions to improve USATT membership. |
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AcudaDave
Gold Member Joined: 11/02/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1859 |
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j-bo you are right on the money about getting it started in schools. My practice partner is a mid-1900 player and a HS Math teacher. He put a poster outside his classroom one day that said he would be organizing a TT club for 1 hr a week after school. His school actually had a bunch of old Stiga tables so he set them up one night after school and to his surprise 40 students showed up! He did this on his own without any support from the USATT. We are really missing the boat by not getting this into more schools. I also read something a couple years ago about how the USATT has had over 20,000 members sign up at one time or another, but that the current list of memberships is far lower. This clearly shows that something needs to change. I also agree that the magazine should just be totally online. There is no need to send out an issue anymore.
Edited by AcudaDave - 11/19/2013 at 9:54am |
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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AcudaDave said: "This clearly shows that something needs to change. I also agree that the magazine should just be totally online. There is no need to send out an issue anymore. "
================================================ Totally agree on that. By not mailing the printed copy of the magazine, USATT can save the cost of printing and postage. By reducing membership fee and rating fee will sure increase the participation of the tournaments.
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skip3119
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bonggoy
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http://216.119.100.169/organization/2009_USATT_SP_Summary.pdf
Best part about the above: "We will be known as innovators and agents of change. Ten years from now, other sports’ NGBs will meet and ask themselves, “How can we grow our sport like Table Tennis did?” Based on what I've heard, the only significant change is the rating fee :D |
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1310 |
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As someone who just joined USATT this past weekend in order to play local tournament, here is my perspective.
49$ is not a huge obstacle financially (at least for me), but I agree that the ROI I will be getting out of it is not so obvious. There are really two things of value here: access to tournaments and official rating. I don't think there are many USATT sanctioned tournaments in my area (Boston), so that does not sound too good. Having a rating is attractive, since I like numbers, but I can get that out of Ratings Central too, and I think there are (or at least were) more RC-based tournaments here. Would it be better to have higher rating charge hidden in the tournament/league fees? Then it would be in USATT interest to encourage additional tournaments, clubs, leagues etc. Right now $49 dues feel like a half empty bar asking for high cover charge, while they probably could use more customers buying drinks. As far as places to look for additional players: schools were already mentioned - add colleges and tech companies to the list. Both have diverse populations with lots of people already familiar with table tennis. In the latter case there is a very high chance there is already a table somewhere in the office - we have one and it's quite busy.
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4952 |
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Back in the day there used to be TT exhibitions by TT Clubs (ie Jeff Mason - Sac TT Club) in shopping malls and trade shows.
Too bad those days are long gone.
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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================================== Thanks for reminding me about this. Our club did this a couple of times, a decade ago. We no longer do this. -------------------- To promote TT, USATT can encourage this by subsidizing some cost. Let's say, USATT can state that USATT will give your club $50, if your club will do a mall exhibition with onlookers of 50 or more. (Have to have proof by taking pictures and certified by the attendees of USATT members.) Limiting each club can do this twice a year. If the club does it the 3rd time, no subside for the 3rd time and onward. Only USATT affiliated clubs are qualified for the subsidy. This way then USATT spends the money to promote the sport, the membership fee ($49) can get a return on the investment (ROI). USATT will likely gain far more members to offset the cost. What do you guys think about this? Good idea or bad idea?
Edited by skip3119 - 11/19/2013 at 2:07pm |
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skip3119
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4952 |
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If there is a Sporting Goods Store in the mall, this could be a win-win for the TT Club and the store. You can promote the Ping Pong Paddles, shoes, quick-dri clothing...etc in the store while promoting the club with discount memberships, equipment and coaching... those were the days...
Edited by jt99sf - 11/19/2013 at 2:05pm |
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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I have updated my earlier post.
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If on average, USATT can gain one new member from each exhibition, then USATT will only lose $1 ($50-$49=$1). If on average, USATT can gain more than one new member, let's say 1.1 new members, then USATT will be ahead financially. |
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skip3119
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4952 |
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In the shopping Mall with a Sporting Goods Store, you can setup and use/promote their equipment. This can be done w/o USATT's help.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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=========================================== Good luck on that. Only die-hard club will do that. Not too many that I know of. Our club has not done this for 10 years or more. With USATT's leadership, these kind of exhibitions in the malls can happen across the US. Edited by skip3119 - 11/19/2013 at 2:54pm |
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skip3119
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4952 |
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Like the USATT leadership we've seen in the last 20 years ?? LMAO... I'm talking about promoting the TT Club and TT, not USATT.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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The fees were raised a few years back in order to increase revenue. If that had resulted in lower revenues, they'd surely have lowered them back to the previous level ... right? |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4952 |
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Membership fees never go down.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Why would a club go to that much trouble for a mere $50? Talk about a poor ROI. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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jt99sf said: "Like the USATT leadership we've seen in the last 20 years ?? LMAO...
I'm talking about promoting the TT Club and TT, not USATT. ================================================ I am talking about promoting TT not USATT, too. USATT can help to promote that. Sure, USATT has not helped much in promoting TT so far (for the past 20 years, as you said.) That doesn't mean they can not change for the better. Thouigh, I wouldn't hold my breath for it.
Edited by skip3119 - 11/19/2013 at 3:27pm |
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skip3119
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