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Poly Ball - Pros and Cons |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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Posted: 04/09/2014 at 3:09pm |
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The Poly ball is nearly here. What do you think the pros and cons are of having a Poly ball in the sport? This can be related to playing, or the infrastructure changes it ushers in (manufacture, shipping, storage, costs, etc).
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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I bring this up because most discussions about the Poly ball just regress to moaning about Sharara's behaviour right back at the initial announcement stage. People are angry about Sharara's slipshod approach with explaining the reasoning, so they won't accept a positive evaluation of any single aspect of the poly ball. It's a touchy subject, but it shouldn't be. We should be able to have an objective discussion about the pros and cons of a poly ball.
Pros: Plastic ball will no longer be treated as hazardous for shipping/storage purposes. Plastic production is worldwide, celluloid production is niche and is only undertaken in a few remaining factories. Eggs shouldn't be in few baskets. Lower spin/speed. Shallower learning curve for beginners. Longer rallies - better for casual spectators (and people who like longer rallies in general I suppose). Cons: Lower spin/speed. Dumbing down the game. Will differences in playing behaviour between brands be wider for poly than it is for celluloid currently? (Especially considering seamed/seamless) Ball costs. Durability concerns - breaking and wearing down to a smooth texture. Nasty sound. Note that I don't consider Sharara's comments about an impeding celluloid ban as a Con of the ball. It's not the ball's fault that he's a dodgy sleezeball. Edited by AndySmith - 04/09/2014 at 4:53pm |
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1dennistt
Silver Member Joined: 03/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 533 |
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Hard for most of us to evaluate, since we haven't even played with the "approved" balls yet. For some I'm sure any decrease in spin/speed will be met with moaning and calls for the old ball to return. So hear goes...
Pros: May slow down and bounce a little higher. May be easier to "hit" through spin, both top and chop if there is less spin. Cons: Balls may break more often, and will cost more (both remain to be determined) Especially initially there will be major difference in the different brands of balls. There will be differences in different batches of balls from at least some of the manufacturers.
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Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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Yeah. As I wrote the list, I knew that many of the points about playing properties are just speculation. I've used the first Palio seamless balls, but things have moved on since then. I don't like the idea of a mix of seamed and seamless - with any team you visit able to pick and choose a different one. I hope that the local committees will enforce one type or the other eventually, even if the ITTF don't.
One thing I'm sure about though - the change in material from celluloid to conventional plastic is a good thing. If the playing properties remain similar. |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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I suspect there will be a new ball bouncing on table sound to tune into.
Apparently they can sound like a broken ball, so we will also have to learn to recognise the broken poly ball sound... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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Whang
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2012 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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If the new balls always sound cracked, I wonder how we'll determine if a ball becomes cracked mid game..hopefully there would be a difference
Edited by davidwhang - 04/09/2014 at 4:46pm |
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Blade: Yasaka Gatien Extra (Penhold)
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 Neo (Black - 2.15mm - 41 deg) BH: 729 Focus III Snipe (Red - 2.10mm - 42 deg) Weight: 168.57g |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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The trend towards the seamed poly ball seems clear at this point so I don't expect much confusion from clubs and associations regarding which ball might be used in various official events going forward as the seamed poly ball looks to dominate what one considers higher level TT. The manufactures have spoken rather loudly that the seamed ball is the best choice at this time. Its interesting that only two TT manufacturing companies are willing to distribute the seamless ball but that may change. With seam: andro 40+*** (Plastic with seam) DHS 40+*** (plastic with seam) Donic 40+*** (Plastic with seam) Double Fish 40+*** (plastic with seam) Giant Dragon 40+*** (Plastic with seam) Nittaku Premium 40+*** (plastic with seam) Nittaku SHA 40+*** (Plastic with seam) Stiga Optimum 40+*** (Plastic with seam) ================================= Seamless: Palio*** (plastic seamless) Xushaofa*** (plastic seamless) |
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suds79
Silver Member Joined: 08/20/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 878 |
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This is with a prototype ball along time ago but William Henzell here had no problem identifying the broken ball saying it sounded even more broken. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzo-PmL8IjA#t=2m55s |
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Rich215
Premier Member Joined: 02/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3488 |
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Good points Andy......It will be interesting too see how well this all plays out and what we think after 3-6 months of using the new balls. I shall reserve my opinions till then.
This reminds me of all the hub-bub with the smart phone industry and the opinions all over the net. |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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I forgot about the nasty sound. It is particularly awful, but you'd get used to it. Maybe they sound like celluloid balls when they're broken? :-)
The ball list looks good - all the main companies have gone with a seam. I wouldn't put it past some clubs to use the seamless ball tactically. Or just for a laugh. I'd prefer a consistent approach, but it remains to be seen how different seamed and seamless are. |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Peter C
Gold Member Joined: 04/25/2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1343 |
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Bearing in mind that ITTF events will be using the seamed poly ball to start with; it makes sense for shops to stock the seamed poly balls, to sell to the public.
Until I've had a chance to play with the poly ball; I'll reserve my judgement. |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Before we debate the pros and cons of the new plastic ball any further, I have a nagging suspicion that the new 2-pc. balls still use very similar materials to the old one, just that they are bigger now. Someone needs to buy 100 of the new 2-pc. balls and burn them side-by-side of 100 current balls with the exact same methods. I am willing to bet they burn at exactly the same rate of combustion!!! Edited by roundrobin - 04/09/2014 at 7:50pm |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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Pros,
good for my smacking type flat hit forehand Cons bad for my long pips backhand
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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runeazn
Super Member Joined: 05/12/2012 Location: milkyway Status: Offline Points: 118 |
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The higher bounce is pretty noticeable and it works in my favor too :P
we started playing with these balls ages ago. Just play a few months and you'll get accustomed |
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Blade: Virtuoso
Red: xiom Japan Black: Nittaku DHS H3 |
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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One of my biggest concern will be the cost, once the ITTF approved ones hit the market, as I expect them to be significantly more expensive.
Most clubs will likely have little choice to change over the them (eventually), and many clubs struggle for funds already. If they are less durable as well (which some preliminary tests of samples seemed to reveal) this will result in even higher costs. The only offset will be that they're cheaper to ship since they're no longer regarded as flammable... it might take the shipping countries around the world a while to catch up to this though. |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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The best explicit PROS, you can now see on taobao market righ now.
Celluloid price is now dropping dramatically, 30 -50% discount for DHS brand. |
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TurboZ
Gold Member Joined: 05/31/2012 Status: Offline Points: 1298 |
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Any links for cheap DHS balls? I bet cheap balls are all fakes. In fact I see a price rise of 20 to 30% with everything DHS starting this month. I have an order of rubbers with old price but got cancelled. When will the ittf approved balls be released to the public? No interest in trying those prototype balls on the market now.
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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Cons - I brought a stack of quality celluloid balls that I thought would last me ages...
I think I'll be changing my balls more frequently to use them up... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Not really a pro. In the near term, there will be fewer individual makers. It seems likely that many of the new balls are simply re-brands from other makers. Will this be a permanent shift in diversity? Hard to say. If there really was a problem with celluloid production (not enough baskets) , wouldn't we expect ball manufacturers (who also make other TT equipment) to be able to recognize this and to take the necessary steps on their own? Why would we think they'd be unable to manage ball production (which is at the core of their business) wisely? Why would we think the ITTF knows best in this area? The notion of potential shortages is pretty much bogus. You should remove this item from "pro." |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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All you need to do is break one open and smell. If you don't smell the camphor, then there is almost surely very little celluloid in it. Edited by wturber - 04/10/2014 at 9:19pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Training balls are inexpensive and shipping must be a small fraction of their cost. Any reduction in shipping costs should be invisible to the end user. In fact. if air shipping is more easily obtained, then shipping costs may go up as buyers and sellers choose air delivery for its speed and convenience. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Oh please. That some special case doesn't allow a wholesaler to save a little money on shipping doesn't change the fact that training balls can be had for 25 cents a ball or less in bulk. Shipping must be some small fraction of that. Even if we assume that shipping averages 5 cents per ball, that is an insignificant fraction of the typical $1.25-$2.50 that is commonly paid for top quality 3* balls. Any savings in shipping (maybe a penny or two per ball at best) will be invisible for the vast majority of 3* ball purchases. Listing shipping savings for the new ball makes about as much sense as touting the inherent biodegradability (it's mostly cellulose) of the celluloid ball as being a significant benefit that is being lost. It's just trivia. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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just saying i could save $80.00NZ per box , so thats not too much trivia, edit after working it out around 50cents nz a pack lol or $400Nz for 5 boxs, so lots of pennys to be shared if considered non hazardous
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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ANDRO PB TESTING.
CONTRAS: I am all unhappy about the sound. Ear wearing, the ball certainly needs ear plugs to be used all the time you play. On the trial play, the Hexer rubber does not match properly. according to Chinese testers topsheet of natural rubber will go best with PB. Using syntetic materials will deny you control of the ball. http://youtu.be/9naWVczs4c8 |
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assiduous
Platinum Member Joined: 05/01/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2521 |
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ball is fine. I just hope its affordable and durable.
NOISE IS NOT LIKE A BROKEN BALL! Some people are musically dead and can't tell the difference between close tones. If you can't tell the difference between two adjacent strings on the guitar, no, you don't know what the ball sounds like. There is no way you can create this sound with the old celluloid ball.
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTC3RaHN4tc
Edited by CraneStyle - 04/13/2014 at 5:48pm |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I can buy bulk 2* training balls from ZeroPong for 29 cents NZ. That works out to 87 cents for three balls. I'd be surprised to find that 57% of the cost of training balls is the shipping. But lets assume that the real cost is 50 cents NZ per pack (I'm assuming a 3 pack). That works out to 17 cents NZ for a ball that typically costs a around $1.17 NZ (converting from typical $1 US per ball cost). That's still a relatively small proportion. And the reality is that most suppliers probably don't get to essentially save all of their shipping costs by including balls with shipments of 40 tables. So this is a best case scenario, not a typical one. I wager than any benefit from (occasional) reduced shipping costs will be essentially invisible to the end user. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=601717429907079&id=100131830065644&refid=17
http://tabletennista.com/2014/4/ovtcharov-i-think-table-tennis-will-change/ DIMA utterly enthusiastic of the plastic. |
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