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Fast blade or fast rubber? |
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BigFatLoop
Member Joined: 05/06/2017 Location: Milky Way Status: Offline Points: 82 |
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Posted: 09/05/2017 at 12:56pm |
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ... they want you to keep trying (buying) as many rubbers as possible on as many blades as possible. Then just when you thought that you found the magic combination, the rubber is dead so you buy more of the same rubber sheets and more of the same blades to have as backup setups. Then the ITTF changes the rules or equipment requirements so your magic setup doesn't work as well anymore ... and you start all over again.... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Edited by BigFatLoop - 09/05/2017 at 4:11pm |
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ohwell
Super Member Joined: 08/04/2017 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 232 |
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Classic 5 ply limba/ayous like yogi_bear suggests. I like the Xiom Offensive S. But there are tons: Eg (quick results of search for blades with this composition) Edited by ohwell - 09/05/2017 at 12:05pm |
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AmirAmulet
Beginner Joined: 09/05/2017 Location: Iran Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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Hi. So Would you please introduce me some flexible blades that matches hard rubbers for the best result both speed and spin and also control. Thank you so much
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frogger
Premier Member Joined: 08/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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Hard/stiff blades usually have a bigger sweet spot and are better for blocking. It is a bit difficult to find a flexy blade with above average sweet spot. It helps to have harder sponge rubbers on flexy blades if you want speed of course It's a complex question to answer as there are many aspects to consider. Blocker/counter players like stiffer blades or power players who loop away from table. From my experiences I find a blade with some flex and faster rubbers work very well for my style. It's hard to say because everyone plays differently. Overall I favor slower blades and faster rubbers but I still like the solid feel of my composite blades. It's one of those unknown mysteries of the universe. |
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Wood Paddle
Red side Black side. |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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Here is a link to a very good scientific description of what U are looking for: this link discusses both rubber and blade.
https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/introduction-to-table-tennis-blade-design/ Beyond the info in this article which is complete for what U are looking for note that to generate more spin requires friction. For example creating a two bounce low serve requires considerably more friction on your stroke then forward thrust, say 80-20.. Also the thicker the rubber the more spin the rubber generates. take time to review the above article it covers both blade and rubbers! |
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Gtbana1
Member Joined: 10/06/2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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All,
Thanks for the information presented. After a long lay off, I find myself in the same situation as rustt. I don't know of any other sport that has as many variables as TT. I don't remember it being that technical years ago, or maybe I just followed those around me. Why can't blade or rubber manufacturers recommend matching pieces to the puzzle? |
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BTY Viscaria, T05,V>401
BTY Innerforce, T05, T64 |
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HowToPlayChineseLoop
Super Member Joined: 02/06/2012 Location: 0 Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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thank you master.
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rusttt
Super Member Joined: 03/16/2014 Location: Danbury, CT Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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Thanks for the tips everyone. I think Ross will be cooking me up a slower blade in the fall and I'll try the P7 and 5Q VIP when it's ready.
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Clarence247
Silver Member Joined: 02/11/2014 Location: Malta Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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fast hard rubber, slow flexi blade - blade maximum Off-, and maybe better All+ ... rubbers no soft versions, medium-soft on BH is ok....on FH medium-hard or hard
if you want to improve
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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According to JRSDallas's Blade Performance Vs Wood Type and Design, the top ply hardness has more to do with how a blade feels whereas the stiffness has a bigger role in determining the dwell.
From my brief hit with the Ebenholz VII:
Some time later I got the chance to try out the Rosewood VII of a clubmate who plays Spectol on the backhand. Because of the short pips, the setup was light yet didn't feel as hard and stiff as I thought, but it had much less dwell as far as I could remember. The red Hurricane 3 could be a factor, also. |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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zeio,
How do the stiffness of the blade in flexure and the hardness of the outerply each on its own and together influence dwell and spin, given a hard or soft rubber? Thanks. |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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For short pips, it could be either hard or soft. Check out the second and third sections.
Back in the 38mm era, I played traditional penhold with TSP Triple Spin 2.0 and Super Spinpips 1.5 on a thick 3+2 carbon blade, if memory serves. That soft/stiff setup was perhaps among the best I've ever built. Edited by zeio - 08/06/2014 at 1:12am |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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bbkon
Premier Member Joined: 04/19/2005 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 7260 |
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whats the deal for short pips? it must be a hard sponge?
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Here is the deal. According to the Japanese magazine Table Tennis Kingdom, there are three areas of concern in a setup - ball separation(inverse of dwell), spin, and kick, which are tied in with the hardness of the rubber and the stiffness of the blade.
---------------------------------- Hard Rubber on Flexible Blade The Mainstream and Balanced Camp ---------------------------------- As the hard rubber does not bite excessively onto the ball on hard strokes, shots tend to rebound quickly to the other court. Yet on passive strokes when under pressure, the flexible blade provides adequate control. One downside of hard rubbers is that applying spin would become more difficult, which could be remedied with flexible blades, transforming this type of setup into a mid-range looping machine and beyond. Ball separation *** Spin **** Kick ***** *Kick refers to the acceleration upon the first bounce on the opponent's court Ideal for players who seek a soft feel yet do not wish to compromise on hitting winners. Best for all-round offensive play slightly away from the table. ---------------------------------- Soft Rubber on Stiff Blade Unique Feel of Bite and Catapult ---------------------------------- The soft rubber gives sufficient bite with good control, even on soft strokes. The blade provides the stiffness to make up for the slower rebound. On hard strokes, this type of setup gives off the sensation of the ball getting sucked into the rubber before being catapulted violently, whether you like it or not. On the other hand, it is surprisingly difficult to impart strong spin on the ball, but in return it allows for a good feel on fast blocks when on the defensive. Ball separation **** Spin *** Kick ** Ideal for players lacking power who stick to the table. Best for fast-attack play close to the table with some driving. Apparent loss of speed once away from the table. ------------------------------------- Hard Rubber on Stiff Blade Finesse that Goes Hand in Hand with the Overwhelmingly Short Dwell ------------------------------------- The simple combination of hard rubber and stiff blade brings about a speedy rebound as different as night and day. But the short contact time between ball and rubber makes imparting spin an immense challenge on the player's skills and touch. The issue of spin can be resolved by the help of tacky rubbers for inverted players. With the tackiness, the least those hard rubbers can do is hang on to the ball. Else, consider crossing out drives from the equation and just live with smashes and flat hits. Whichever way you pick, it is a double-edge sword. Ball separation ***** Spin ** Kick ** Ideal for fast-attack players intermediate and above looking to finish off quick who do not back down even when pressed. Non-inverted players should be prepared to finish the match entirely with smashes. ------------------------------------- Soft Rubber on Flexible Blade Rallies and Defense Built upon Consistency and Rotation ------------------------------------- Soft rubber and soft blade may make for a controllable setup, but the rebound speed leaves a lot to be desired. Relying on offensive power to gain points would be extremely difficult. Rather, attention should be paid on placement and lines of play for this type of setup. For defensive play, the high control would result in very consistent chopping and blocking. Choppers in particular would find it easy to produce shots where the ball sinks deeply into the rubber but in fact no spin is imparted on the ball. Nonetheless, the lack of power would be evident on counterattacks. Those relying on variation of pace between offense and defense are recommended to use non-inverted and special rubbers. Ball separation * Spin ***** Kick *** Ideal for offensive players with tricky loops and blocks, and defensive players who punish their opposition by changing up spin with the use of special rubbers. Recommended for beginner and intermediate choppers. Edited by zeio - 08/06/2014 at 11:50am |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
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try 5 ply limba blades like tibhar stratus powerwood, adidas force pro (like peter korbel), stiga infinity vps and pair it with adidas P7, 5Q VIP (if you want control and spin with not much reduction on speed this is better than 1Qxd) or Joola Maxxx 450
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Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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Spin is what makes the "fast" set-ups you describe behave...
If you're not producing looping spin you may prefer flat hitting - blocking, pushing and smashing... Decide what game you play or aspire to play and you'll be on your way to solving your puzzle... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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rusttt
Super Member Joined: 03/16/2014 Location: Danbury, CT Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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In my personal journey back to table tennis I've bought and discarded a lot of equipment just trying to figure out what works for me after a long break from the game. I started with a DEF+ Stiga with some high control rated rubber on the theory I needed to work back up to the faster setups I used to prefer. I couldn't play with the thing at all so I gave it to a defensive style coworker who loves it and bought something faster, Palio TCT, plus Tuttle Beijing 4. It was better than the other setup but only just. I couldn't get the spin I was used to due to very low dwell time and anything passive popped up or went long. Fast forward a bunch of blades and a lot of DHS, Tenergy and ESN rubbers and the closest I've found to nirvana is my custom Leidy blade with ultra hard ipe outer plies (maybe OFF to low OFF+ rating) with 1QXD rubber which still comes out maybe 10% faster than ideal for me. I believe this setup has been more successful for me because the all wood blade is fast but very predictable with no catapult effect and still has a large sweet spot.
What I'm looking for feedback on is how you think about speed between the rubber and the blade? Where does the speed from the rubber give way to speed from the blade and how do pair them up to get the desired result? I know from experience I can't do fast blades like TB ALC and ZJK ZLC with Tenergy, Andro Grip and the like - it's just too bouncy and high throw for me to adjust to and I end up becoming increasingly passive trying to reign in the speed. I can play okay with those blades using dead sponge rubbers like DHS - in fact I love them in the couple of hours before they break in but then as they speed up I'm back to feeling like the whole setup is too fast again. Should I go with a much slower blade and try the Tenergy again to see if I can balance it out or just tweak the speed of the blade down a notch and stay with the 1QXD?
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