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Seeking a good backhand rubber |
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assiduous
Platinum Member Joined: 05/01/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2521 |
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cool story bro.
Ease off the ninja movies and the pot man. If you take my words literally instead of what you know I mean, then, yes, you CAN play with Anything. Just glue a piece of paper to the blade and you can still hit the ball with your backhand. Not only that, but I know very well many people can beat ME with blade with plain paper on both sides. But this has no bearing on the FACT (remember, CAPS win arguments) that (ok, relatively speaking) chinese rubbers are JUNK for backhand. You can fool some people who have never tried tenergy with your ninja stories. But once they try a good jap or euro rubber, your story bro becomes laughable. Same old line though, u guys need to change it. This old kung-fu master came out of nowhere and kicked ass with this and this junk set up. Sure, all of the pros use jap rubber on BH (at least), but that doesn't mean Nothing. What you should take in consideration when deciding on your BH rubber is the kung fu story Imabout to tell ya. One day i walked into the club, and all of a sudden, there was smoke, and that ninja showed up out of nowhere...
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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That left a mark but the trope is a bit tiresome.
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ZingyDNA
Platinum Member Joined: 09/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 2373 |
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Didn't Xu Xin switch to Chinese on the BH?
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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I think there is good dialogue here, and I agree (or at least don't disagree) with much of what is being said.
Someone mentioned earlier the nagging doubt about equipment. It needs to be said that a lack of results is directly correlated with a lack of skill. However, to ignore human psychology is to ignore what actually constitutes a person's experience. You want to use the best equipment possible not because you think it will suddenly make you good, but because when you fail using tenergy you know that your failure was 100% your own skill, and not your equipment! THAT is the key to being unsatisfied with your equipment. In regards to actual reviews. I must say, if I were some rich person I would just buy tenergy and leave it at that. You can't complain about tenergy; you can't say that you're being let down by your equipment. However, because I'm not, I generally lean towards slightly more affordable equipment. However, if one can say that tenergy could be more, or equally, cost-efficient, that is to say the money you spend per year is equivalent, then that would be a convincing argument to buy tenergy and be done with it. Math-wise, you would have to use Tenergy 34% longer than another rubber to end up paying the same price per time played. If that's possible, then why not! Edited by Argothman - 09/23/2014 at 1:40pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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We can do the following - assiduous can send me one sheet of rubber and argothman can send me another. I will use the softer rubber, no matter the hardness, for my FH and the other for my BH on a Dawei Quattro Limba at a Lily Yip USATT tournament. The whole set up will cost no more than seventy bucks buy while I will struggle with it, I expect to defend my rating. I just want this chinese rubber nonsense to stop. I promise to execute 5 banana flips per match.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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I actually have a theory that explains why chinese rubbers are played on the forehand and non-chinese rubbers on the backhand, I suppose now is a good time to elucidate it.
Basically, your forehand can produce a lot of power (foreward momentum), more than you can ever hit with. Imagine hitting the ball like a baseball, no amount of spin could bring it down fast enough. Thus, the limiting factor is the amount of spin you can produce to keep the ball on the table. That is why you use chinese rubbers on the forehand: they give you a lot of spin, and they mostly ignore speed, which you can produce a lot of. The backhand is the opposite. Because the arm and wrist are very fluid and snappy you can produce a lot of spin on your backhand, but you can't produce anywhere near the power as you can on your forehand. Thus, you need a rubber that's fast enough to make up for the lack of speed on your backhand. Spin is of course important as well, but if the rubber is too slow your backhand is handicapped. Hopefully that explains it. Chinese rubbers on the forehand for spin, fast european rubbers on the backhand for speed. Edited by Argothman - 09/23/2014 at 1:49pm |
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GMan4911
Silver Member Joined: 08/31/2012 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 830 |
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I consider myself FH oriented and play with H3 unboosted on both sides. At the club where I play, someone recently told me my BH is intimidating. During practice matches, some of my opponents will not serve/hit the ball to my BH. It is so fast that my opponents are frequently caught looking at it whiz by. It's all in the technique. |
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OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max
ITC Challenge Speed, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/Powercell Ultra 48 Max |
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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Of course, I'm talking about the pro level of the game where they try to get every little advantage possible.
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lordcope
Member Joined: 09/20/2014 Location: Hampshire, UK Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Thanks man, it amuses me, and I think there's a real lesson in it.
Ok... help me understand how to take the following metaphorically:
Is there some hidden message behind:
Am I coming at this as someone painfully neuro-atypical when I interpret this:
...as something literal? It's possible I'm missing a subtle nuance.
See, that wasn't what I was trying to convey. You seemed to be implying, nay stating with emphasis, that the reason you find it hard to open with a Chinese rubber has nothig to do with your technique, and rather is because Chinese rubbers are not suitable for the job. I'm simply calling BS. It is a technique thing, as evidenced by the fact that, in the scheme of things, averagely good players (let's face it 2000-2200 isn't mount olympus) can generate spin and kick the asses of 1500-1800 players even with *no* equipment. By inference, players such as the OP and me... and maybe you... if we are unable to generate spin / return serve / whatever.... it's nothing to do with the equipment, and everything to do with technique.
You haven't brought anything new to the discussion. Repeating an assertion doesn't count. My fundamental observation is not about Chinese rubbers per se, but about the OP and his HK1997, which is a perfectly serviceable, fairly soft, fairly grippy, actually not-very-chinese-style-at-all rubber. The problem the OP describes is not an equipment problem.
I'm not following this one. I'm not knocking good jap/euro rubbers. They're fine. Great even. I've used Andro Hexer, and liked it a great deal. This doesn't invalidate the point behind my story. Good players are good players because they have mastered the fundamentals of the game, and have good technique. Weaker players are weaker because they haven't. Equipment accounts for little of none of the difference. |
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FH: DHS Hurricane 3 #19 2.2mm (black)
BH: DHS Skyline TG2 #19 2.2mm (red) Blade: DHS Dipper SP10 "Patience has all the time it needs." - Allan Lokos |
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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Let me clear a few things up.
First, I don;'t have an equipment problem. Me not being satisfied with the rubber doesn't mean it's lacking or that it's causing me problems, rather it means I think there's something I would enjoy playing with more. Second, I'm not sure about this 'chinese brick' mentality people have. I play with unboosted commercial H3 neo, and it does not feel especially hard or slow to me. It feels like a normal rubber with good spin, sure it doesn't give you an insane catapult, but I couldn't honestly tell you it's too slow, at least for my forehand. Last, when I say I'm looking for a rubber that's good at looping underspin/flicks I'm not saying that my current rubber can't do that, I'm just saying that whatever rubber I end up buying should be able to do that well. |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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A lot of bravado around here...
Don't be surprised that you can use rubber Y on your backhand because you used rubber X before it... Appreciate the gateway effect of rubbers used in the past. Hard or soft, something is felt, learned, experienced etc... ----------- "Each player is different. Each one has his strength and weakness. By offering individual playing material I wanted to help players right from the beginning to emphasise their individuality." Hikosuke Tamasu Founder of Butterfly ---------- That's why the choices exist... Equipment does matter (the argument has been had too many times). Can you give a double sided T05 player a bat with Super anti on one side and long pimples on the other side and they perform their typical stokes...? @ Argothman - Do you prefer soft or firm rubbers on your BH. ..? Steer us in the right direction. If you're not sure share this as well... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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I'm not too picky (or knowledgeable) about the hardness to be honest. However, tonight I'm going to hit with a friend, I can try hitting with my hurricane on the backhand just to see how it feels :D
Edited by Argothman - 09/23/2014 at 4:38pm |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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That's the way. ...
Get a reference... Enjoy! |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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lordcope
Member Joined: 09/20/2014 Location: Hampshire, UK Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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It totally does. I played on Sunday, and just for giggles I played a match with Hexer and Dr Evil, and then a match with Mercury Venus and Donic Baxster. I actually played very well with the sponged pips on the BH, but the next two or three games I had with my usual setup were a disaster! What I'm starting to learn is that my ability to learn and groove strokes... that is to build up good technique... is negatively impacted by equipment changes. The brain has to reboot because the feedback is not the same as it was before. I used to love to mess about and change rubbers and blades, sometimes playing with different setups several times in a session. Now I just find it messes up my game.
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FH: DHS Hurricane 3 #19 2.2mm (black)
BH: DHS Skyline TG2 #19 2.2mm (red) Blade: DHS Dipper SP10 "Patience has all the time it needs." - Allan Lokos |
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IanMcg
Gold Member Joined: 05/27/2011 Location: Somehere Status: Offline Points: 1151 |
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I dunno why people say that H3NEO is a brick
These people obviously haven't played with H2NEO, PF4 or SST Pro Team.
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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Well, I can safely say that H3 NEO is not a backhand rubber. It wasn't the hardness per se, but it was just too slow, it didn't have any catapult/kick/speed. The spin was good, but it wasn't really useable.
I'd be fine with a harder rubber if it has a good catapult/kick to go with it. |
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GMan4911
Silver Member Joined: 08/31/2012 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 830 |
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There's no such thing as a backhand rubber i.e. a rubber made for the backhand. It's your technique that prevents you from using H3 NEO effectively. As I posted earlier, I'm using classic H3 effectively on my BH and it's slower than NEO. It took about 3-4 months of training to get there though. Edited by GMan4911 - 09/24/2014 at 1:30am |
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OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max
ITC Challenge Speed, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/Powercell Ultra 48 Max |
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iakovka
Super Member Joined: 07/14/2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 446 |
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+1
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XIOM ZX1 Feel 85 Gr, FH: XIOM Omega VII Pro, BH: Rakza 7 Soft 2MM XIOM ZXI 88 Gr, FH: XIOM Omega V Tour, BH: Rakza Soft 7 2MM |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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lordcope saw me use a bat with H3 NEO on the BH when he was in Boston, had no trouble on BH wing opening or finishing.
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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Two of our better club players use H3N on their backhands. Both better players than me, both very different.
One plays with highly exaggerated strokes on the BH side, almost as much arm movement as a typical FH stroke. This is his way of getting enough pace on his shots. His recovery time is obviously compromised, but he has a wide range of shots available to him. Great openers, looping from distance, but retaining excellent control over the table. He uses H3 on both sides. The other has a dark history of short pips on the BH side. He switched to H3 years ago, but still has a lot of his SP tricks available to him. He has a HUGE hit on his BH side with a big swing, a soft loop with loads of spin, a nasty recovery chop from distance with horrible low flight and skiddy bounce. His main weapon is his BH punch, which is fast, flat, and difficult to read - they get netted regularly. Not "conventional" at all, but hugely effective. Both have had to come up with methods to use H3N on their BH sides, and they're both happy and play at a good level. H3N satisfies their needs well. TT is a sport which supports a large variety of styles. IMO, we should celebrate the unconventional outliers who add colour, rather than dogmatically apply a one-size-fits-all approach to everyone. If you want to use a slow BH rubber, go for it (but be aware of the drawbacks, obviously). |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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bns7117
Super Member Joined: 02/06/2014 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 458 |
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i am tired of recommending rubbers now. just get rakza 7 soft, sigma II euro, or Vega Euro at 2.0mm, if you dont like em, just sell it to me as i need one of those rubbers for sparing as well.
So its a win-win situation here. This topic is closed now. lol Edited by bns7117 - 09/24/2014 at 10:10am |
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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Yeah, I'll probably end up getting one of those, they seem to be the best options for me right now.
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bns7117
Super Member Joined: 02/06/2014 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 458 |
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cool bro, you got my words, if you don't like my recommendation after buying them, sell them to me. Just cut the rubber a little bigger so that they can fit my blade.
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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How do you guys feel about vega Europe vs pro? Is it just a hardness issue, or is there something more to it? I'm probably going to get one of those.
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DreiZ
Platinum Member Joined: 06/01/2009 Location: New York, US Status: Offline Points: 2577 |
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Just get one and stick with it to learn proper technique... or you are just going to get sucked into a loop of "I don't like how this rubber feels so I'm going to change it for something better"...
You should just get tenergy for the same reason and see it for yourself. Only then you'll realize that not even the most popular rubber in the world will not help you play better. Improvements in technique is what will help you in the long run. Not constant EJing. There are categories to which level of player should use what rubber (everyone knows that)... but it's not set in stone. I see coaches give their young students ALCs, ZLCs, SuperZLCs, with Tenergies but only because kids are sponges. They adjust and learn much quicker than anyone over 25. So I'm telling you now to get Tenergy on your bh and it will fix this EJ mentality that all of us once had in terms of which rubber might be better. It will force you to recognize the errors in your BH rather blaming the feel of the rubber. Edited by DreiZ - 09/24/2014 at 2:32pm |
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Main:
Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
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AMonteiro
Platinum Member Joined: 01/30/2007 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 2042 |
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Euro is very soft, both sponge and topsheet. Pro is harder, both sponge and topsheet. I would get Vega Asia, medium-hard sponge and soft topsheet or Vega Japan, medium sponge and soft topsheet. |
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Dynaryz AGR /Yasaka Goiabao 5 / Dynaryz AGR
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bns7117
Super Member Joined: 02/06/2014 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 458 |
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Nice man, i never really figured that out. So what does vega asia and japan excel compared to Europe? I tried Vega Asia a while ago, and i personally felt that Vega asia was better on attacking than Vega Europe, or was i wrong? |
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AMonteiro
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You're right. Asia has a faster sponge compared to Euro but both have soft topsheets. Vega Japan is placed between these two with a 45° sponge. |
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Dynaryz AGR /Yasaka Goiabao 5 / Dynaryz AGR
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bns7117
Super Member Joined: 02/06/2014 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 458 |
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Thanks, AMonteiro!
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