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Nittaku Premium 40+ balls (Japan) |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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DIVERSITY OF THE BALLS IS A REAL BENEFIT FOR OUR SPORT.
According to the elementary mechanics: --The lesser mass of a ball, the greater rotation the ball would display in looping play. This is the true scientifical answer why Nittaku plastic is the best spinny ball of all the others on today's market. Still, my inner whisperer tells me that a vast majority of the seniors and common club incomers will eventually prefer DHS 40+ (=2.80g) to play with, just because of the not-so-crazy spin and speed generated by the DHS weighty plastic. BLESSED DIVERSITY. Let there be some diversity of tt balls on the market. Players must be allowed to make theit own preffered choice. Defensive players will surely like the lighter-softer balls, and heavy loopers will opt for hefty species LET IT BE SO !!!!!! Edited by igorponger - 10/18/2014 at 3:26am |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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ITTF will not approve the current version of DHS balls after a certain point if they stick to what they have been insisting up to now. At present, the DHS do not currently meet the required specs for either weight (2.8 is too heavy) or bounce (too low). ITTF has approved the Chinese seamed balls for the time being but their stated expectation is that they will enforce more stringent standards before long. I guess we will see. Also, market forces will determine some of this and people will make decisions on price, play, availability, and durability. Some people will stick with celluloid as long as they can, which may be forever if they keep making them. I thought DHS made a pretty good celluloid ball from 2009 and later after they changed something in their formula. So they are capable of innovating and this current ball is not going to be their final product. It can't be. One last thing I have noticed at the clubs where I play is that the preference for higher bouncing balls (as opposed to the ones that don't meet ITTF standards) is shared by everyone pretty much regardless of style. Loopers, defenders, penhold blocker/hitter. This includes SP, LP and inverted. All of the 40+ are a little slower and less spinny than celluloid. So if the DHS suits your criss-cross blocking style, so will the XSF and Nittaku Premium, at least that's my guess based on what I've seen from pretty intensive investigation of this whole matter.
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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...when using multiple balls? I have to ask that, because your report contradicts the ones I read after the recent European Championship where the same Nittaku Premium 40+ were used. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Mastermind, you really have severe tunnel vision. Does Baal's report have to be exactly the same as that of the pros? And for all we know, you mabe lying about the durability issues. You would usually link to them with glee. I gave my report that I broke a ball. It doesn't mean I and Baal's experiences have to be the same. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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What nonsense! Can only imagine this same logic applied to all other sports such as baseball, football having 5 different balls that curve differently in flight and each home team used whatever ball best suited there players. The reality is that the sport with 6 different balls being legal is no longer a competitive universal sport instead breaking up into various segments that have competitive events focused on various ball types. Can only imagine the bickering at international events such as Olympic's and world championships about what ball to use. The new normal for Ping Pong.
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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You are welcome, here we go. Sabine Winter, World Rank 101, on her personal experience with the plastic Nittakku Premium at the recent European Championship (in German, http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/blog/5209/sabines-blog--in-lissabon-eine-gute-woche-gehabt):
In short, once she and her partner managed to break 4 Nittaku Premium 40+ balls within 15 minutes just at the beginning of warming up. Note that this site is not known for criticizing plastic balls, therefore my guess is that this could be a sign of change of the plastic policy. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I haven't made a decision as to their durability. That is pretty obvious from what I wrote. I said we didn't break one. I mostly used one last night. Guys on the next table used another one the entire rest of the night. Of course I expect balls to last beyond a full night. My reports as to the durability of, for example, XSF balls, I assure you, are more accurate than anything you may have "heard" somewhere. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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But of course, if we read the whole thing, we get a different impression, not just your cherrypicked version of it.
In other words, the experience was *inconsistent*. Because if they had gotten just 12 balls for the team, they would have broken them all in 1 hour.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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And there was no control group. How many celluloid balls would break in that time for players at that level?
I would say the verdict is out on the durability of the Nittaku Premium balls. (By contrast, I have decades of experience with how long balls usually last when I play with them). Personally I will be surprised if they are anywhere near as durable as XSF. But I just don't know yet. And yes, Mastermind was certainly exaggerating earlier when he wrote that the Nittaku Premium balls had developed a "bad reputation". Those few lines he quoted that did not accurately reflect the entire picture with these balls even from this person's experience, and more importantly we have not heard from anyone else. |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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I just posted what was was published on a well known German site and gave the link to the original too, not what I "heard somewhere". |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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OK. We have heard you. Again. What you read on the German site was that a XSF ball broke. You suggested they might even be dangerous!!!!! It turns out, however, that XSF balls are highly durable.
You really have no credibility because you are not objective on this subject. |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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They got 12 balls for the team at the beginning, as she wrote. My guess would be that the organizers urgently made it 120 or 1200 facing the unprecedented short life of that ball. But even if it were just 2 balls in 15 minutes on average, it would make 16 balls per 2 hours session, which makes 8 balls per one player at 24$ costs per session. People playing 3 times a week would have to pay about 3.000$ a year just for balls. Edited by Mastermind - 10/18/2014 at 12:03pm |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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It was the author of the comment who suggested that. I gave the link and you read the original. Besides, I do not understand, why we should change the topic now. The topic is "Nittaku Premium 40+ balls (Japan)", not how dangerous the XSF balls are or not. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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And that is the fundamental problem. "On average". We don't know from that if this was the normal behavior of the ball. It was a single isolated report from one person over a short period of time. We don't really have an average. Then you start "guessing". But your guesses are nonsense because at present the Nittaku Premium is in very short supply. You don't know how many balls the organizers had, and made up a number that is not what the player actually quoted. We will know if there is a durability problem before long. We don't know how accurate these numbers are. You are grasping at straws for the moment. Stay tuned. Maybe I will come back before long and tell you there is a big durability problem with these Nittaku Balls. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I know. I started the topic. And you most certainly did write comments about how can people be expected to use such dangerous stuff as the XSF. This part of this thread is now about YOU. You seem to take even the slightest positive comment about any plastic ball as an offense and a provocation, and like I said, you have zero objectivity (as evidenced by your pretty ridiculous comments about the XSF ball breakage some time back). Well, these balls are here, and some people want to know about them even if it makes you sad. One other thing that maybe someone who was there can tell me..... Was the Nittaku ball used at the European Championships that Nittaku Premium or the Nittaku SHA? They are both "new balls". |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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You do not need to fight me. I am not Sabine Winter. If you do not believe her, you can address her on the German Forum at tt-news or on her blog. I quoted her and gave the original link. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Yes you quoted her. A single quote does not establish a "reputation" for a product--the word you used on a different thread-- especially when you don't provide the whole quote. |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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Again, I quoted the original and gave the link. Then I commented on that as people usually do on this forum. By the way, there was another comment recently on the same German forum on XSF ball bursting dangerously in fast flying peaces when hitting something hard. But let us put it aside and stick to the actual topic here, please. |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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When talking about reputation for Nittaku Premium 40+ balls I actually meant the impression of users on tt-news forum who commented on the finals they watched, where according to them an unusual number of balls got broken. The Sabine Winter report was published later and is just another confirmation. |
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Baal
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Bursting dangerously!!!!!!! Yeah, right. In a sport in which we play using eye-sized projectiles moving at high speed. You have pretty much done it to yourself this time.
Since very little of what you say about 40+ balls is based on your own experience I think people here can ignore it safely (especially since you are extremely selective about what you decide to quote). Since your only posts here are to complain about these balls almost reflexively suggests people can ignore you completely. I mean really, don't you have an opinion on anything else, like who has a good backhand or something? Isn't there something on some other subject you can translate from a German website? Or at least something substantive about your experience with these balls? Igorponger has played a lot with DHS 40+ balls and likes them. They are among my least favorite but at least he defends his position based on actual experience playing with them and makes no secret about the fact that he likes the price and they suit his style. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Summary of comments before this little back and forth.
1. The Nittaku Premium 40+ (not the same as the Nittaku SHA 40+) plays more like celluloid than any other plastic ball I have tested (and that is a very large number). It is a bit lighter than the others but is still large and has less speed and spin than celluloid. It is very round. It has a bounce height identical to celluloid. I feels more solid than XSF but both are good. I am starting to have the slight impression that Nittaku Premium retains slightly more spin off the bounce than seamless balls. It is much easier to play with than other seamed balls. 2. I don't know about its durability yet. The outside wears more than a XSF (seamless) ball. 3. It is very expensive and once again, vendors including Iruiru are back ordered. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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My apologies for driving the back and forth.
1. The player I played with when I used the ball is now about 2100 and was once as high as 2400 when he was younger. 2. He immediately liked the Nittaku Ball. We played with it for quite a while. I promised to give it to him and went on to another table to use another ball. 3. When the ball was brought to me cracked, I was disappointed. I stilled played with it without my opponent (a 1400-1600 unrated player) noticing. But eventually, it became more noticeable and he complained. I gave him the ball I was using at my table. The main reason why I don't discuss the balls more extensively (even if some people think I have) is that I still play too many celluloid events. Because most people in my area are looking at the NA Teams, the Joola ball is the one that gets attention (since the DHS ball is the same, I don't really distinguish between them). The Nittaku Ball will get attention in December with the Nationals coming up. Almost no one at my club uses the seamless ball or the XSF ball because they don't investigate it. To test the ball, usually, I go to a table and just toss a ball and I play with a pips player and a looper without telling them what ball we are using and play a match. Based on how much we miss or adjust our shots, I can tell whether the ball feels good or not. The XSF ball is the only ball I haven't broken. The Nittaku ball led to the most similar and highest level of play vs. celluloid, though it favored me more because I block more than my opponent does and my opponent relies on his serves more than I do.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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Just read the prospectus (http://www.ettu.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/2014-ETC-LISBON-PROSPECTUS-final1.pdf): Balls: NITTAKU PREMIUM (white plastic with seam) |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Definitely the Premium, yes.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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TSuBaSa
Gold Member Joined: 10/01/2003 Location: Turkey Status: Offline Points: 1147 |
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Just played with premium nittaku and yes that ball is premium.
It's hard to see the seam. It's hard, round, not that big, feels hard, bounce is very similar to celluloid balls. Just a little bit less spinny but it's the best 40+ ball by far. It's a shame that ball is expensive... |
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Nittaku Tenaly Acoustic Inner Carbon
Joola Rhyzer Pro 50 & 45 |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Baal, do you have an estimate yet on how long the Poly Balls play new ? The Cell balls played new for 3-5 hours in my estimation. |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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XSF balls usually exceed useful lifetime of celluloid. When they do break there will be no doubt about it because they fracture completely, often during a point. I have one in my bag that was used hard for 12 hr and that you might still want to use, and like you, I generally relegated celluloid balls to serving practice at 3-7 hr (see below about conditions at my club). The surface of XSF in particular is pretty durable. There is no reason at all to worry about these balls based on durability.
Seamed Chinese polyballs, I had a lot of them break quite quickly. My first 6-box of Joola 40+ lasted about 4 days. All of the ones I have tried from various companies were made in June. There is a widespread concern about durability. I can't personally say whether the DF versions are better than DH versions or not in terms of durability. Some people think they play better. I have not yet broken a Nittaku Premium but it is too soon for me to say much about durability. I have noticed that the outer surface picks up mars much more easily than XSF. But they definitely have a nice feel to play with. Based on appearance of outer surface after a few hours of play, my guess is that durability will not be a strength of the Nittaku Premium. I play at clubs with red Gerflor-like flooring which tends to increase ball lifetime, and the place I play the most has a dark green colored tarp nailed to the walls to improve visibility, but which also keeps the balls from hitting such a hard surface. On the other hand, I also play with some people who hit really hard and some of the balls have been used by 2500 players. |
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rick_ys_ho
Super Member Joined: 08/18/2009 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 344 |
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It seems that the ongoing women world cup is using DHS balls.
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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My very best compliments to DHS chemical staff.
The quality of plastic material has notably progressed by now. NO breackage of DHS40+ happened all along the matches of the recent Women's Cup The newest batch of DHS plastic of September2014 proved to have the best durability and happy improvement of the ball ballistics. THe DHS balls to celebrate are marked with production code XJAD |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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The new normal in TT, another new poly ball production batch described as better then the last overcoming the many reported shortcomings and generating hope in the TT.......
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