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table tennis from 1970' |
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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Posted: 05/25/2015 at 9:44am |
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Kjell Johansson vs Hans Alser Stockholm 1970 Exhibition. Great example of all-round style, perfect touch and all, etc but seems so slow compared to modern TT. Edited by vvk1 - 05/25/2015 at 9:45am |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Someone said that they (players) likely slowed it down for TV. Probably that and lack of speed glue in play.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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Dunno, I had looked on YT for other videos of these players from 70', and none seems to feature much faster playing pace.
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kolevtt
Platinum Member Joined: 06/13/2011 Location: European Union Status: Offline Points: 2578 |
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I have shared this video long time ago, but thanks for sharing once again. If I remember correct the discussion was close to: Who is better - elder or newer school players :))
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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"Great example of all-round style, perfect touch and all, etc but seems so slow compared to modern TT." We have to remember that the most offensive rubbers they had were either Mark V or Sriver. Good rubbers those days but not comparable to rubber of even 2 to 3 years ago. Back in the day hardly any amateurs did a winning BH loop now it is common place. I think if they had the equipment and knowledge available nowadays their power would be comparable to today's top players.
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Leftyy
Super Member Joined: 02/14/2015 Location: Europa Status: Offline Points: 210 |
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Haha thanks for sharing. Anyone got some more videos like this one? I can't really understand why they not trying to get more spin in the serves, even if it was a long time ago I didn't think that the serves was so far away from todays serves. Nice to see the development!
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Tassie52
Gold Member Joined: 10/09/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
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Do we now want to resurrect the old argument that TT was a spectator sport back then, but it's not now? Check out the absolute boredom on the faces of the studio crowd. The applause is polite at best, and some of the women appear to have died some time ago and rigor mortis has now set in.
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in2spin
Silver Member Joined: 12/09/2008 Status: Offline Points: 988 |
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just a little perspective: alser and johansson (and stellan bengtsson) - were the state of the art players at that time. johansson's "hammer" smash was the defining shot of the period. exhibitions are actually quite boring to 'real' players nowadays...all they do is lob and smash, and do the go around the table thing. this exhibition was actually fairly decent, in terms of the players actually participating in fairly real rallies
the game is much faster nowadays, but, it's like comparing bob cousy to stephen curry, or reggie jackson to giancarlo stanton. an age old argument :) |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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THANK YOU FOR POSTING! My dad took me to see these two play when we were living in Stockholm in that same year (or possibly in winter of 1969), and they were my heroes growing up, especially Johansson. That was right about the time I started to get serious about playing. This is the best quality video I have ever seen of these two players, so again thank you, it meant a lot for many personal reasons to see this. (Among other things, my dad totally surprised me by taking me to see them, in part because I had no idea that he cared much about my own activities then).
A couple of things came to mind watching them now (beyond the nostalgia of it for me). I don't think they are intentionally playing slow, this was how people played then, partly due to equipment (blades, rubbers, balls), and partly technique. To me Johansson looks a lot more modern. Serves 40 years ago look very primitive compared to anything in last 25 years, especially now. (Serves don't look too modern until late 80s). 38 mm balls were not so easy to keep on the table and the amount of spin rubbers of those days could impart was significantly less, and my understanding is that in 1970 not even the Hungarians had figured out the advantages of speed glue (but I think they would start doing that not too long after that). People rarely were able to spin much on the BH side. I remember being coached to do some footwork things then, which I noticed Alser doing, that we would never advise now because it's just too inefficient. Alser had kind of a funny grip sometimes. In some ways this looks a bit more like modern women's game than modern men's game. |
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Machine_Head
Super Member Joined: 07/24/2014 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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Thank you for sharing. Although i still was not around that time it is still great to see what our beloved sport was like back then.
A few questions about this era, what were the more popular blades and rubbers during this era? And which country were strongest? Thanks. |
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TenNine
Super Member Joined: 06/09/2012 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 151 |
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Dunno about the rubbers or blades, but I guess Stiga Allround and Offensive would have been up there among the most popular.
If we count all the medals in the world Championships between 1965 and 1975 (gold, silver, bronze), we get sort of an average and a decent pointer towards the best nations at the time. INDIVIDUAL MEDALS (four medals awarded as 3rd and 4th shared the bronze at that time) 9 Japan 5 China 4 Jugoslavia 2 Sweden 2 West Germany 1 Hungary A similar pattern is shown for TEAM MEDALS 5 Japan 4 China 3 Jugoslavia 3 Sweden 2 North Korea 1 West Germany Looking at those results I'd say Japan, China, Jugoslavia and Sweden were the strongest nations between 1965 and 1975. Most striking perhaps, is that no nation was as dominant as China is today. Hope that helps :) Edited by TenNine - 05/26/2015 at 1:26pm |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Stiga and Butterfly were popular then but there were a lot of other blades that you might not find now. Two of the most widely used rubbers for top level offensive players in 1970 were Yasaka Mark V and Sriver. A few years later, Butterfly came out with something called Super Sriver, which was not a big success. You could use red both sides. For a much slower rubber, some people would use Yaska Cobra 3 Star (which also came in green and amber color). There were a lot of other rubbers out there but i couldn't buy them so didn't know about them.
Top countries for TT in 1970 included Sweden, Japan, West Germany, Yugoslavia (long since split into several countries) and Hungary -- and pretty much all of Eastern Europe. China was still in their Cultural Revolution, and so their great players would emerge in 1971. Lots of good Soviet and Romanian women in those days, along with of course players from Japan. A few of the great players of that era that I followed closely and that I can remember right off the top of my head were the Swedes (Johansson and Alder and a year later Bengtsson, also Kjell Johansson's brother and Carl-Johan Bernhart); Klampar and Joyner from Hungary would emerge a year or two later I think); Surbek and Stipancic from Yugoslavia, also the father of the current Karaksevic; Dennis Neale of England; Shigeo Itoh and Hasegawa of Japan and Eberhard Scholer of West Germany. Xu Shaofa of China would be seen by 1971, with one of the first really scarey modern looking serves; and several other equally intimidating Chinese. Anyway, that's what I remember, which means I am leaving a lot of stuff out. |
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Pondus
Gold Member Joined: 04/07/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
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The Alsér grip, later also used by Ulf "Tickan" Carlsson... you don't see that much more. I remember several players in the 80s using that grip. It provided better control, but obviously less wrist flexibility.
Interesting... I hadn't thought about how that grip is pretty much gone. (Or at least I think it is).
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Baal,
Other inverted rubbers from the 1970s that I remember included BTY Tempest, a heavy spinny sheet that generally came in dark blue, BTY Plous (not common) which was amber or gold colored, Yasaka Hi-Original and Yasaka Black Power. BTY Super Sriver was available on Okinawa as early as 1968. I don't know when it became available in the States.
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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in2spin
Silver Member Joined: 12/09/2008 Status: Offline Points: 988 |
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tempest came in inverted and pips out versions
plous was kinda brown, kinda like some armstrong rubber i cannot remember ("conquerer"?) thing i remember about super sriver was the density of the pips slightly after this period, (mid-late 70s) we used to mount sriver S sideways with no label, so the pip was the same direction as sriver L, except you had the speed too :)
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TenNine
Super Member Joined: 06/09/2012 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 151 |
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I remember Carl-Johan Bernhardt! But it's not a name you hear every day these days. He had a great forehand loop and was talked about as THE destroyer of defensive players in the 70's. Apparently he doesn't play at all anymore, but is enjoying life, happily retired from work and table tennis. Here he is a couple of years ago with the "original" Stellan Bengtsson and the rest of the championship-winning team of 1962 :) Carl-Johan Bernhardt, Sven-Erik Ekman, Stellan Bengtsson and Nils Bertil Billing. Edited by TenNine - 05/27/2015 at 4:40pm |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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You refreshed my memory with some of those. I definitely remember Tempest and Black Power To be honest I have no idea when Super Sriver actually came out. In the US I became aware of it probably around 1973 or so. Table tennis communications were not so straightforward then! I was a Mark V guy*. On an Alser blade, until Charlie Smith made me a faster balsa blade. Yes, he was making nice blades even in the early 70s. *I didn't like it new. I preferred it used!!! Go figure why, I have no idea at all and I had kind of forgotten this until just now. So there was a guy at my club then who liked it fairly fresh, and when he changed, he would give me the old sheets, which I would wash thoroughly with alcohol and then glue up. |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2337 |
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That's some pretty hard hitting there. They are using fairly slow rubbers, maybe 1.5-1.8mm at most. But I also think that we are being fooled by the film speed at perhaps 24fps which can give that dreamy look. The serves are decent but I get the feeling that were trying to get a rally going first before graduating to the 'exhibition' stuff.
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I downloaded the video file and it is 25 fps and shows aliasing that artifacts that suggest the footage originated as video with fields. So this was probably shot at 25fps PAL video and it is being played back at the correct 25fps speed. Folks here should keep in mind that this was only 11 years after the 1959 ITTF rule change defining max 4mm sandwich rubber (pips in or out) and pips out no sponge as the three approved surface types. Just 11 year prior, many top players were still wielding hardbats. So what we are seeing is the product of those 11 years of learning, experimenting and development with perhaps some extra insight gained from those players who were trying foam/sponge bats prior to 1959. Looping and tons of spin was still in its infancy. This video is 45 years old. Keep in mind that 45 years prior to this video it was 1925 - or right about the time that the ITTF was initially formed. There has been a LOT of change in the game in the 45 years after this video - a full half of the time the ITTF has been in existence. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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I actually posted a couple of sheets of rubber from that era, still in their original wrappers, for sale a few years back. I got no takers and still have them around somewhere.
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cje
Super Member Joined: 04/13/2011 Location: edinburgh Status: Offline Points: 368 |
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What blades are Johansson & Alser using....
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http://www.murrayfieldtt.com/
YEO/ Galaxy E-3/ FH: Skyline III Neo / BH: Palio HK 1997 |
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