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qualified coaches opinion needed |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 at 7:44pm |
"Even when adequate footwork is in place, it requires pretty advanced game reading qualities to be effective through consistency" - good point
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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You can't teach this stroke effectively until the footwork is good enough at mid distance, because unlike the f/hand which can be played at varying arm reach, the b/hand loop drive requires the exponent to be in position behind the ball at contact. Even when adequate footwork is in place, it requires pretty advanced game reading qualities to be effective through consistency.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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smackman, let me just say that I never thought of any other coaching approach then make the player acquire a certain proficiency in the more basic strokes before going to the more difficult ones. Acquiring the strokes before concentrating on game play etc. After reading the members' opinions,
in this case I would tend to give the coach the benefit of the doubt, as the player is 40 ish and maybe just wants to have fun with the backhand loop drive at the same time as he is learning the counter-hit.
Edited by tom - 10/10/2015 at 11:30pm |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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Being qualified as a coach is to have the paper (ITTF level1 or similar or higher etc) sometimes well trained players young or old could give as good a answer as they have been trough the process of being trained and will often be better at training others, as the systems they have learnt are transferred on, I have had my ITTF cert for nearly 10 years, I still play more than coach , In fact just won my first gold medal for at our Nationals for 45 Doubles, I would consider myself as a club coach as I prefer to get students on the road than try and take them to the top
but many here have life experience, have had training and or have gained good knowledge over time of playing, watching and giving sensible information, we are all a little bit knowledgeable about table tennis so on this type of answer, will be generally walk before run, and always try and stay at the table but individual styles will come out anyway Having said that we from the outside don't know all the circumstances with the learner and the coach, for instance the player may have asked some advice on looping away from the table, maybe the student has a good backhand or the coach could see something extra the student has like a full swing wristy action, or maybe some fun at the end of the training, or maybe the coach is doing the wrong thing for that student So Tom what do you think?
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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I never thought of TT from a non-competitive point of view - but I guess one must keep that view open - that might have been incorporated into this coach's approach.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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In China, no one considers 2000 beginner level. The amount of time required to get to 2000 is significant no matter how talented you are. Most people who think this way acquired most of their skills as kids and have no clue what the general population does. Even in China, 2000 is well above average unless you restrict yourself to table tennis schools and training centers.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Kind of how I see it too.
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MLfan
Super Member Joined: 04/23/2015 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 486 |
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I think your question has more to deal with whether the student is thinking of playing table tennis somewhat seriously. If he/she will never enter tournaments, then just have him play as many different types of moves as possible, to keep interest. If the student is aiming to play in tournaments, then counterhitting 100 times is a must, and should be combined with footwork drills.
Also, beginner/intermediate/expert levels are all relative... for me, players like Tao WenZhang are considered expert level (if we're talking about US players). 2000 is, in all honesty, just past beginner level imho. Edited by MLfan - 10/10/2015 at 10:35am |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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"Do you see a coach doing that?" -not a paid coach, a 1800 - 2000 volunteer coach
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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It is good from a relatively early stage to learn to play both sides from close and mid-distance. It teaches people to track the ball with their eyes and to move in and out as well as side to side. I am not sure, though, at what level it would qualify from early. Maybe around 1500 or so although don't want to get tied into a specific rating number (since people of the same rating can have very different strengths and weaknesses). Certainly, it would have to be past the time when they are struggling to hit 20 counters in a row because before that it is kind of hard to imagine you are not wasting time if they can't do that. It's kind of a strange question. Do you see a coach doing that?
I am not in any particular way qualified. Just speaking from having played a long time. |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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agreed with the footwork part - the opening question is to gather the possible benefits such as you mentioned - keeping the student interested or possible drawbacks (which I won't mention as not to influence the answers from the members). It might draw a conclusion if one side overwhelming have more supporting points.
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ericd937
Gold Member Joined: 06/01/2012 Location: Saigon, Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1191 |
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So, counter looping from mid distance? Sure why not? Each player is different though and may benefit from different types of drilling depending upon their learning style and playing style. I think you have to keep beginners interested and mix things up from time to time also. I don't see why a beginner wouldn't get some benefit from counter looping mid distance.
edit*** Additionally, I think beginners should focus on footwork more than they usually do. Footwork is one part of my game that needs improvement. When I start training again in December, its the main thing I'm going to ask the coach to work with me on. Edited by ericd937 - 10/10/2015 at 9:01am |
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Current Setup: TBS FH T80/BH D80
Official USATT Rating 1815 Current estimated level: 1800-1900. |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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as you say, away from the table would usually be against topspin but it could be against a high long block as well
Edited by tom - 10/10/2015 at 9:00am |
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ericd937
Gold Member Joined: 06/01/2012 Location: Saigon, Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1191 |
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Loops or counter loops? When you say "loops" I think of looping underspin. Which I rarely if ever do from mid or far distance. I would consider myself high level intermediate/advanced. In my opinion, above 2000 is expert. So, I would say that there's no need to teach this to a beginner. However, I wouldn't say that it would do any harm learning to loop at this stage.
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Current Setup: TBS FH T80/BH D80
Official USATT Rating 1815 Current estimated level: 1800-1900. |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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let me qualify beginner for the question, played a bit before but never in organized TT and is within his first month of joining a club
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ericd937
Gold Member Joined: 06/01/2012 Location: Saigon, Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1191 |
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I wouldn't consider 1400 a beginner either. I think under 1100 or 1200 is beginner.
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Current Setup: TBS FH T80/BH D80
Official USATT Rating 1815 Current estimated level: 1800-1900. |
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MLfan
Super Member Joined: 04/23/2015 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 486 |
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The only training method I know is how I used to train in China, so my opinion is that at least 100 backhand counterhits have to be made before the student should even begin to backhand loop away from the table. Usually it would be "quick loop"? (快斯) before stepping back from the table to backhand loop. I personally think that standing close to the table and focusing on speed should be drilled into beginners :)
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I wouldn't consider 1400 a beginner (which is why I said all the other things in between that need to be worked on make the goal puzzling). Because of my personal experience building my backhand, I have found exercises that develop the stroke with a large motion to start with sometimes more helpful than short motion exercises. When the student has the full power motion, they can transport the source of that power into their shorter strokes. If one starts with the smaller motion, it can feel unnatural because of the size of the smaller stroke. But coaching, at its trickiest, is all about creating successful students so taking a one size fits all approach only helps if you aren't trying to find ways to solve your student's problems and would rather label them and leave them alone.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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schen
Gold Member Joined: 03/26/2013 Location: San Diego, CA Status: Offline Points: 1244 |
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NL is right - usually no. However there can be a benefit to teaching that depending what the player is struggling with.
When I was still solidifying my strokes (around 1400ish, I'd still consider that beginner), my coach at the time wanted me to loop with my backhand off the table as the ball was dropping (late timing, early to late fall) to better understand and get a feel for brushing the ball on my backhand. Once I felt comfortable doing that, moving up to the table to backhand drive/counterhit became a lot easier and more consistent because I was spinning the ball more.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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The answer is usually no, because table tennis begins at the table and you usually build backhand timing fundamentals into the counterhit. That sad, the strokes are distinct enough that it can be done with benefits for overall backhand strength, though the end goal is puzzling given all the other things in between.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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would you teach away from the table backhand loops to a beginner before he can make 20 at the table backhand counter hits in a row? and why? I have an opinion, but I would like to hear from someone with coaching experience.
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