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The lust for older Viscarias |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Part of it is that a Viscaria old or new is simply a better blade than a TB-ZLC of any age. And bear in mind that it's not just ZJK. Many good players use the Viscaria, and for a reason. Now why the crazy bubble price for the old ones? That is actually a quite recent phenomenon and it astounds me. I bought one here, a couple of years ago at most, for $185 and it is perfect, the best Viscaria I have ever used. Still more than they cost new. My guess is that this price inflation won't last, and if my experience with the most recent version turns out to be representative of all of this new series, people won't be hesitating to buy new ones now.
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4228 |
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Recent reviews of viscaria (supposedly for the new version) are pretty good at ttdb.
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The Canadian Bacon
Gold Member Joined: 08/29/2015 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1323 |
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Black Tags are collectibles; like most collectibles prices are inflated, everything has it's price and a buyer.
Really fatt, i didn't think you'd be that person i'm not impressed at all. |
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kakapo
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2013 Location: Mordor Status: Offline Points: 3430 |
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It is quiet obvious I think:
1) on a collector point of view, a black tag had, has and will always be more valuable than the newer versions of the same blade....the price of the black tag keep on increasing. The older, the rarer, ...the better 2) Production of blades with serial number began in 2006 and even those blades have, on a collecting point of view, more value than the current version. Again..older = rarer = more expensive. 3) You don't have a lot of BTY blades which are still produced after 23 years of existence..we have for instance Primorac off-, Korbel off and Viscaria. That shows the succes and the popularity of those blades. Old tag Korbel and old tag Primorac have also more value than the new version. I personnaly know that Gionis Panagiotis prefers older version of Korbel than the newer version...and he surely knows why. He is not alone to act like that. 4) Even if you can eventually find a good playing blade among the newer versions, a lot of players have experienced that newer versions are often too light for instance and often lack on quality. Older black tag versions are not all fantastic blades but they are often better than newer versions. 5) Lots of current great players play or have played with Viscaria, even those who are not in contract with BTY. Those blades have nothing to do with the viscaria we can buy at our retailor but they are probably closer to the old and heavier old version. At least, that is what I was said by some very good Belgian players. Getting a ZJK Super ZLC is a simple question of money but...everybody knows ZJK doesn't play with that :))) 6) Viscaria has become a myth because there are threads on every forums about that blade and its story since 1993 and the générations with S T, ST, SN + old tag, SN, last version..... Everybody wants to hold and have a ST one because it quiet rare. Those who can't buy a ST one would be happy to get a FL or a F L one...and of course, a black tag one because...again, the older, the better. It is a symbol. 7) Viscaria has become an investment. |
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Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Hmmm... An interesting and strong statement about Viscaria over TB ZLC. Plenty of this is historical accident as I know one junior who had both and largely used his ZLC then sold his Viscaria. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Yes, but I stand by it. Of course it is an opinion.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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As long as you remind people that you are a Viscaria fan and buy them in surfeit, then people can assess your objectivity. I understand the opinion but ZLC is modern technology and the players using it are young.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4228 |
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Do we still have something called personal preference?
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Sure, all that is true, but I still think it is a fairly objective observation that a lot more young high level players are using ALC, and among those, the Viscaria remains one of the most popular blades for very good reasons. TB-ZLC, Amultart, JM, and all the various ZLC and super ZLC blades, even going back to Photino, never really caught on to the same extent as Viscaria, TBS, TB-ALC. Maybe this will change now. Like I said, mine was an opinion (and yes I guess I am sort of a connoisseur of Btfly ALC blades, which also means that I have often compared them to other Btfly composites). By the way, on another point, I would warn buyers that just because a Viscaria has a black tag does not mean it will be this perfect blade. And that is worth noting when you see somebody asking hundreds of dollars for one here, especially since you are not going to get a chance to try it beforehand. |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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Considering The Product Lifecycle of a table tennis blade (with the Viscaria as an example), it's fair to say that the TB ZLC is young...
The Viscaria has definitely been championed by ZJK, as the TB ALC was championed by Timo B himself and Ma Long amongst others... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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And guess what? Zylon is the older synthetic fiber here, first produced in the 80s. Vectran came out in 1990.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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In blades or as a technology?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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This is obvious, but once Baal gets rolling, it is hard to stop him.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Maybe it wasn't always the case, but isn't ZLC tech usually more expensive? Most people copy their idols, and which players are more idolized than Zhang Jike and Timo Boll in the Butterfly Brand? And given that blades are not that much objectively better or worse once they check certain boxes and suit certain player preferences, it comes as no surprise that the less expensive technology is the more popular one given more popular/better players are using it and have more fans.
Edited by NextLevel - 06/16/2016 at 5:45pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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As a technology. The US Air Force developed Zylon and sold it to Toyobo. Vectran was developed by Celanese Acetate who later sold it to Kuraray.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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If I'm not mistaken, one of NL's cadet / junior up'n'coming practice partners & forum member (who probably is at around 2300 now) uses TB-ZLC. Meanwhile, a blast from the past:
Actually, Baal is right: for sure, when I look in the clubs around me, there are more Viscaria / TBS / TB-ALC users. However, I'll wager that that is not a active choice after their trying out a ZLC blade - most players (and almost all youngsters) are not EJs (thank 'God'). But I'll also wager that all the players I mentioned above must have tried Viscaria / TB-ALC at some stage. As I said, it depends on the playing environment around you. They play with Viscarias just because they see the older generation or Chinese coaches playing with them. Just like you and I pay up for black tags just because others pay up for them...
Edited by slevin - 06/16/2016 at 5:53pm |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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I pay up for black tags just because others pay up for them... what a wind up, were you out biddided at some time
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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You greedy hoarding bastards! Just let me join the club already! Enough is enough. If I can't get myself one, I will just talk it down.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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Watching the ITTF NA Cup today: To the list of US team ZLC users, add Jiaqi Zheng: Amultart. Subtract Kanak Zha (who has been on a recent EJ spree, first onto Korbel from IF-ZLC and then now onto the TB-ALC). If I'm not mistaken, Eugene Wang was a former ZLC user for years as well? Then he had a short stint with Viscaria and then onto a all-wood blade (I've heard that he boosts his H3).
Edited by slevin - 06/24/2016 at 5:05pm |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Eugene was using a Viscaria in 2008. I don't know what he uses now. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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A while back I awoke with lust
For an old Viscaria. Went onto EBay, found one, bought it, But here's the sad scenari-a. I posted pictures on MYTT Of my vintage Viscaria. It turned out that the blade was fake Much to my dismay and horror-a. My blade's a fake! Sad but true Jake, it's not the right make, The grain ain't smooth, the edges are rough, the writing ain't the right style. The lens is cloudy, my future not bright, I got no reason to smile. But somewhere in this favored land People are playing pong. With their older Viscarias, They bought right, I done bought wrong.
Edited by berndt_mann - 06/24/2016 at 10:07pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Because, as ever Berndt, you did not follow my sage guidance. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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I should have followed your sage advice, But I did not, and paid the price. I bought a fake I could not use, And now I'm singin' the Viscaria blues |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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illinichamps
Super Member Joined: 09/08/2014 Location: Mars Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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Hi all..
This might explain everything.. though I do not think the viscaria is a mind trick, as it is a very good blade, I think the overhyped black tag phenomena probably is due to this sort of cognitive expectation. Also, I just wanted to note when you play with a super expensive blade (I am guilty of this as well) you know if you lose, its not the blade, its because you suck and you just practice more. Cheap blades make you keep on wanting to blame it and throw it at the wall in crazy animalistic rage. ^^ You can't throw 300+ dollar blades just because of one point. http://brainblogger.com/2008/02/04/expensive-wine-just-tastes-better/ A recent study reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences demonstrates that marketing can have a significant effect on the neural mechanisms governing decision-making. The study measured the “experienced pleasantness” of three different wines, both by subjective reporting of the test subjects’ perceptions of the wines, and by measuring activity in the medial orbitofrontal cortex, a known “pleasure center” in the brain. Test results indicated that even when wines were identical, subjects’ levels of experienced pleasantness differed according to the reported price of the wine; the same wine tasted better when the subject believed that it was a sample from a $45 bottle of wine than when she was told it was from a $5 bottle. Investigators recognized that subjects may be influenced, at least in their subjective reports of the wines, by a sense that they should find the more expensive wines to be more pleasant; however, the MRI results bore out the reports of experienced pleasantness. Furthermore, two months after the initial experiment, subjects were re-tested with the same wines, but without the pricing information. Results of the follow-up interviews showed, as expected, no difference in the perception of the identical wines. Interestingly, areas of the brain considered primary taste centers were not affected by the difference in pricing, indicating that the experienced pleasantness is a combination of actual sensory perception and cognitive expectation of pleasure. Why might the brain make these connections? The investigators suggest that the complex task of decision-making may actually be enhanced by the expectation/sensory perception combination, in that the act of making choices often depends on past experiences. In cases like these, past experience may indicate that higher prices, at least in wines, typically translate to higher quality; coupled with neutral sensory perceptions, price truly does increase the pleasure of the taste. How might these results affect advertising, marketing, and the economy in general? While further study on the neural basis for experienced pleasantness is necessary, it seems reasonable to conjecture that marketing and advertisements that are designed to raise the expectation of the quality of a product may, in fact, increase the consumer’s satisfaction with the project in a physiological way. This may warrant an adjustment to contemporary economic thinking, which asserts that the intrinsic quality of a product will derive its place in the market; this study indicates that artificially increasing (or decreasing) its price significantly changes the experiential pleasantness of the product. Thus, an externally-applied characteristic of the product designed to change the expectation of the quality of the product can and should be factored into its experienced utility. |
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H3 Prov. |MJ SZLC | 05 FX
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kolevtt
Platinum Member Joined: 06/13/2011 Location: European Union Status: Offline Points: 2578 |
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1500 EUR for Gergely? Excuse me? Any link? |
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vivan4tt
Super Member Joined: 11/07/2008 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 234 |
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The biggest EJ of table tennis "legends" (according to Christophe Legout) is Kreanga, recently he switched to sZLC, Christophe Legout is using a viscaria like (TBS) since the glue ban BTW. The IF ZLF is very popular for French young players (Quentin Robinot, Tristan Flore for the most famous ones are using it), in fact the classics viscaria-likes (it includes TBS and all the renames from butterfly) are not really used anymore by the young genration here in France. Concerning the ZLC, same it looks now more popular for the young generation (born in 90's) : Benjamin Brossier is using JM zlc, Petiot is using TB-zlc.
Viscaria-likes are still the most pupular blades (by far) at pro stage, but slowly the hegemony is fading away with the new generation comming in. In the French young generation Antoine Hachard is using an ALC blade BTW, but it's IF ALC.
Edited by vivan4tt - 06/25/2016 at 7:46am |
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Mizutani sZLC / T05fx / T05fx
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I thought that the TB-ZLC and TB-ALC were introduced in the same year. |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4228 |
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The core material of viscaria is indeed balsa. I just read an article suggesting that the old viscaria used a yellow kind of balsa wood, while the newer ones used white ones. And that makes a difference.
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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This butterflyonline endemic has to stop. It is kiri. Has always been.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4228 |
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My mistake. In chinese, it is 梧桐,so it should be kiri, not balsa.
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