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h0n1g View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Delete please
    Posted: 02/14/2017 at 9:49pm
Removed based on yogi's feedback.


Edited by h0n1g - 02/25/2017 at 7:03pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2017 at 1:09am
Nice review! Thanks for the detailed comparison agains Viscaria!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2017 at 3:42am
Friend H0n1g, very nice review. I have to disagree with you in some points. Firstly in terms of spin, first comes the virtuoso, yes it creates more spin than viscaria. Of course the virtuoso is a hand made blade so someone other's virtuoso may have a little difference, but it is so small...And secondly, in terms of speed, I have a feeling that viscaria is a bit faster than the acoustic carbon. ( I am not 100% sure cause I don't remember well the speed that acoustic carbon created when I played it.

P.S. a small advice...please when you want to compare some blades between them try to use exactly the same rubbers, not the same gluing and ungluing them, but I mean the same rubbers in model and thickness.
Someone here in forum has told me that if you are an EJ you can understand the differences between 2 blades playing them with different rubbers and probably I am not so much EJyer like others, but I didnt want to asnwer him. He has completely wrong...in order to see every detailed difference between 2 blades you must use the SAME rubbers. 
Butterfly Custom Blade ST
Tenergy 05(black 1,9mm FH)
Tenergy 05(red 1,9mm BH)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2017 at 6:18am
Originally posted by *_strataras_* *_strataras_* wrote:

Friend H0n1g, very nice review. I have to disagree with you in some points. Firstly in terms of spin, first comes the virtuoso, yes it creates more spin than viscaria. Of course the virtuoso is a hand made blade so someone other's virtuoso may have a little difference, but it is so small...And secondly, in terms of speed, I have a feeling that viscaria is a bit faster than the acoustic carbon. ( I am not 100% sure cause I don't remember well the speed that acoustic carbon created when I played it.

P.S. a small advice...please when you want to compare some blades between them try to use exactly the same rubbers, not the same gluing and ungluing them, but I mean the same rubbers in model and thickness.
Someone here in forum has told me that if you are an EJ you can understand the differences between 2 blades playing them with different rubbers and probably I am not so much EJyer like others, but I didnt want to asnwer him. He has completely wrong...in order to see every detailed difference between 2 blades you must use the SAME rubbers. 


That's what I do, don't know how you can compare two different blades with different rubbers lol
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2017 at 7:58am
No one can compare 2 blades with different rubbers and then you will say a review to compare them. Anyway a guy told me that if u are master of EJing you can understand the difference...but I let him in his darkness.

I just mentioned that cause the friend "H0n1g" writes at the beggining of his review that he has played these blades with totally different rubbers, that's why he can find a blade having for ex. more spin than the other, or having one blade more speed than the other etc.


Edited by *_strataras_* - 02/15/2017 at 7:59am
Butterfly Custom Blade ST
Tenergy 05(black 1,9mm FH)
Tenergy 05(red 1,9mm BH)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2017 at 9:17pm
Valid points. I will be getting a bunch of EL-S rubbers in this week so I'll re-test and update this accordingly. However, there is absolutely no way the Virtuoso creates more spin than the Nittaku Acoustic Carbon, no matter what rubber you put on it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/16/2017 at 2:28am
No need to get a bunch of same rubbers. You can use a latex-based glue like butterfly chack2, or revolution no3, or nittaku finezip to glue your rubbers, and when you test a blade, you can easily unglue them and peel off the old glue and then glue them again to the next blade. why spending so much money?!

I dont really insist that acoustic carbon creates more spin than the virtuoso cause I had little time to try the blade, but I do think that virtuoso creates more again, anyway I cannot be 100% sure. But for viscaria I am 101% sure that virtuoso creates more spin...I used to play many years with viscaria and now I am playing with a virtuoso for about half a year, but it is not only my blade, I have tried my team mate's virtuoso and it creates more spin than the viscaria too.
Butterfly Custom Blade ST
Tenergy 05(black 1,9mm FH)
Tenergy 05(red 1,9mm BH)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/16/2017 at 2:31am
Allwood blades softer outer plies tend be spinnier than composite harder outer plies.



Edited by jonyer1980 - 02/16/2017 at 2:32am
Rosewood NCT V 86 gr Master

Thibar MX-P MAX FH

Thibar FX-S BH



Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/25/2017 at 12:25am
updated post with new testing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/25/2017 at 4:11am
The jmzlc does not and will not have a greater spin potential than an infinity blade. In terms of looping, the infinity will loop better and will spin better.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/25/2017 at 4:14am
And so with control. Where are you getting this conclusions that the jmzlc an off+ blade has better control than an off- infinity blade? The infinity was already slow in the celluloid era and it became even slower with polyballs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/25/2017 at 4:29pm
yogi, I can only tell people MY impression and observations. And for me and my play style, the SZLC offered what I consider more control: being able to place shots, being able to block hard hits and loops accurately and having a large sweet spot on the blade to produce good hits myself. Thats how I define control and - again - for ME - it had more of that than the Infinity.

For spin: i have no way to objectively measure spin, so yes, maybe my impression is wrong on this. But then again, it was harder for ME to generate spin with the Infinity, no matter how scientifically incorrect that might be.

Perhaps you can do your own review of these blades so people have a different perspective as well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/25/2017 at 6:42pm
Then you have not played enough and tried the blades you mentioned enough. You even tried them with different rubbers and hurriedly made your conclusion about it. What your consensus on your test doeS not necessarily mean they are correct. Oh i have made my own tests. I am counting at least 50+ different rubbers and 50+ different blades. You should rework on your test and conclusions. People will say it varies from person to peraon but there are already established facts facts about certain equipment and yours is a bit far from the truth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/25/2017 at 7:01pm
I'll just delete my test. Seems like contribution is something you don't want in this forum. Enjoy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/25/2017 at 7:18pm
When you do your tests do it objectively and i as moderator and an equipment junkie also try to check things here posted from time to time. What if a newbie would read your tests and buys all of a sudden a jmzlc all because you said that it has better control and spin potential than a known blade that is slow?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/25/2017 at 7:31pm
I really don't have time or interest to argue with you. I have deleted my test. Please delete this thread.
If you feel that there is only one opinion on things, I'm sorry. I have a different point of view. 

Instead of pointing out that you feel differently you seemed more enthused to trash my review all together, even thou I did spend the time and effort to go back and test the blades with the same rubbers. But hey, if you don't want this effort in "your" forum, be my guest. I don't have an issue with that but I certainly won't be contributing to any discussions in the future but instead just leech info. If thats your goal as a moderator, you've reached it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/25/2017 at 11:43pm
The problem with a term like "control" is that it is meaningless (control of what??). So different people who mean different things by the term seem to draw different conclusions.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 12:39am
h0n1g:I really wish that you would put your review back, so that we can all read it.
Although some may not agree with some of your findings, others may in fact have similar views to you. The review of a rubber or blade is very subjective, and depends a lot on your level, style and what equipment you compare it to. The only way we can benefit from other people's views, is to get more reviews and discussion, so that we can all make up our minds to which review we can relate to more closely.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 2:14am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

The problem with a term like "control" is that it is meaningless (control of what??). So different people who mean different things by the term seem to draw different conclusions.

I could not agree more. This is also why I emphasized multiple times in what I wrote that this is "MY" impression not a statement of fact. I also pre-phased the entire thing with my playing ability being probably far below that of a lot of other forum members. Control to me for example is how a blade helps me to bring balls under control that I usually struggle with. I.e. in my case blocking fast top spins or smashes or making the occasional chop block.

Before I buy a blade, or anything TT related really, I try to read multiple reviews. Thats why I like forums like these. However, Yogi_Bear seems to think differently which I respect but I don't need to defend myself for writing what I felt was a decently thorough review. I can defend my point of view but I dont wish to defend the action itself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 2:38am
I disagree with your findings and i discussed my findings based on common facts. This would not be a lively forum without discussions on people's agreements and disagreements on equipment and the like. If you have noticed i am not the only one that disagreed with you but you only reacted to my statements because i was keen on my arguements. Be a man and take criticisms on your posts, i receive them all the tine and not get offended by them as long as they are not personal and not below the belt.
Control at times may be relative but 2 different blades when tested with the same rubber and not different rubbers have a xommon accepted range of control, i.e., the accuracy of your different shots not going outside the net, meaning the ease of performing a shot with less errors on it. Using a slower blade always though not all the time ensures you to have greater accuracy compared to using off+ composite blades which this is what i am arguing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 3:22am
'h0n1g:I really wish that you would put your review back, so that we can all read it.
Although some may not agree with some of your findings, others may in fact have similar views to you. The review of a rubber or blade is very subject, and depends a lot on your level, style and what equipment you compare it to. The only way we can benefit from other people's views, is to get more reviews and discussion, so that we can all make up our minds to which review we can relate to more closely.'

I would drink to that.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 4:07am
I checked out a cached copy of h0n1g's review, both the original and the edited one. I have a rough idea how it led to this.

Edited by zeio - 02/26/2017 at 4:07am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 4:11am
He over reacted and cannot accept a healthy argument and discussion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 8:03am
Yogi did the right thing, anyone saying a faster blade generates more spin than a slower blade for the same stroke bears the burden of proof.  But deleting the post was an overreaction.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

He over reacted and cannot accept a healthy argument and discussion.

I'm not going to point out where you are wrong in this but if you want to see healthy argument and a discussion / constructive criticism, you might want to look at the 3rd post in this thread by *_strataras_*. He pointed out that my testing was not correct and he disagreed with some of my findings - very different approach than you took of just bashing everything I said. If you believe your replies lead or led to a discussion or were constructive, you literally have no clue about debating or how to present your arguments, I'm sorry. This is the last thing i will post in this thread.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 3:13pm
Control may just be 1/speed.  Better to avoid the term or describe in more detail.  I agree with Yogi about spin potential of the composite vs a flexible wood, but I tend to be equally skeptical about claims of spin that this or that rubber or blade generates.  Awfully hard to measure really.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 3:28pm
But even if the things h0n1g said were not true, it's still HIS opinion and by that he is in titled to say whatever he feels like. I mean every review is just an opinion and a lot of similar opinions lead to a more likely conclusion. Yet there are always people that completely disagree with the majority. And by deleting opinions your pretty killing freedom of speech and can't have a healthy discussion. Should have wrote your own opinion so people could get a better image.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 3:34pm
So much of equipment reviewing is subjective.  Sure, there are some sensible safeguards people could adopt to make things more uniform (as already mentioned, use the same rubbers where possible.  Don't boost a new rubber on your first try if you can live without it.  Don't use VOC glue on modern porous sponges, as the manufacturers direct.  And so on), but everyone has their own experience to draw from and that will always make things hard to compare directly.  No one is immune from this, and all we can do is be honest about playing level, style, and to compare with common benchmark blades/rubbers whenever possible.    I mean, I disagree with yogi about many things he says when he reviews things, but I don't try to correct him on anything that's obviously just his opinion because I think he's honest in the way he reports things.  I can give a differing opinion on things and be very comfortable that I've also tried to be as honest as I can.  It's easier to evaluate basic stuff like blade speed on the whole, but I expect vast differences of opinion on things like spin and control because these two are so dependent on player level and technique, and are terrifyingly subjective.  

People really shouldn't expect to agree all of the time on this kind of thing, and there should be no automatic trust for the consensus IMO.  I actually found that the OP here did a good job of describing how they felt, and giving some insight into their style of play in an effort to explain how that came about.  I thought that it was a good job, and although I didn't personally have the same experience with some of these blades, I took that to be a sign that I play a different type of game to the OP, not that they were just flat wrong.  I also took the whole review as something of a meta-warning of the dangers of taking people's opinions as objective fact about equipment.  So it was useful to me in several ways, and it's a shame that the original post has gone IMO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

So much of equipment reviewing is subjective.  Sure, there are some sensible safeguards people could adopt to make things more uniform (as already mentioned, use the same rubbers where possible.  Don't boost a new rubber on your first try if you can live without it.  Don't use VOC glue on modern porous sponges, as the manufacturers direct.  And so on), but everyone has their own experience to draw from and that will always make things hard to compare directly.  No one is immune from this, and all we can do is be honest about playing level, style, and to compare with common benchmark blades/rubbers whenever possible.    I mean, I disagree with yogi about many things he says when he reviews things, but I don't try to correct him on anything that's obviously just his opinion because I think he's honest in the way he reports things.  I can give a differing opinion on things and be very comfortable that I've also tried to be as honest as I can.  It's easier to evaluate basic stuff like blade speed on the whole, but I expect vast differences of opinion on things like spin and control because these two are so dependent on player level and technique, and are terrifyingly subjective.  

People really shouldn't expect to agree all of the time on this kind of thing, and there should be no automatic trust for the consensus IMO.  I actually found that the OP here did a good job of describing how they felt, and giving some insight into their style of play in an effort to explain how that came about.  I thought that it was a good job, and although I didn't personally have the same experience with some of these blades, I took that to be a sign that I play a different type of game to the OP, not that they were just flat wrong.  I also took the whole review as something of a meta-warning of the dangers of taking people's opinions as objective fact about equipment.  So it was useful to me in several ways, and it's a shame that the original post has gone IMO.

+1 on Andy's post, especially where I added the emphasis. I try to be as open about my style, level, weaknesses, biases etc when I review equipment. I am sure far from everybody agrees with my reviews, either because I flat-out perceive/describe a characteristic wrongly, or because I emphasize certain characteristics over others (e.g., for me the single-most important characteristic is 'feel' which is hard to quantify). IMO, we should not critique reviewers harshly (who have taken the time to test and write a report). We can and should expect reviewers to describe their level, experience, etc, allowing the reader to put the review in context.

For example, a Donic Baracuda might be the greatest thing since sliced bread for an intermediate player, but of less use for certain types of advanced players.


Edited by patrickhrdlicka - 02/26/2017 at 4:46pm
Adidas Challenge Force, MX-S (FH), TSP Spectol (BH).

Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69419&title=feedback-patrickhrdlicka

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

But even if the things h0n1g said were not true, it's still HIS opinion and by that he is in titled to say whatever he feels like. I mean every review is just an opinion and a lot of similar opinions lead to a more likely conclusion. Yet there are always people that completely disagree with the majority. And by deleting opinions your pretty killing freedom of speech and can't have a healthy discussion. Should have wrote your own opinion so people could get a better image.


The OP deleted his own stuff.   Yogi did not delete anything. The points yogi made could have been addressed repeatedly and patiently. And someone had to make them just as strongly as yogi did IMO.

Edited by NextLevel - 02/26/2017 at 5:19pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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BH: Karis M R
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