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carbon v. fiberglass (glass fiber or fibre)

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fatt View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12/29/2017 at 1:46pm
I never followed a discussion about fiberglass plies in blades. The fleet series of Nittaku always intrigued me and I never tried any (Barwell, Ludeack).

I enjoyed reading this:

Fiberglass can flex without breaking, doesn't care about UV radiation and is also much less expensive than carbon fiber: would it be much better for a looping blade to use fiberglass instead of any of the following: carbon, arylate, zylon and kevlar/aramid and their combinations?

this was also cool:


--------------

edit 12/30/2017: I am bringing a post below up here to continue from dauntless' thread and update a list of those blades containing fiberglass /glass fiber plies.

________________________________________________________________________________


There is a nice thread about blades containing fiberglass / glass fiber with a list of blades to which we can add the 2 Nittaku and the Yinhe Y-13:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33275

The list is (with lgxb's addition):

729 L-1

Andro Fibercomp

Butterfly Maze Passion

Dawei Genote F

DHS PG 12

DHS PG 13

Donic Persson PowerFibre

Donic Waldner Diablo Senso

LKT Blue Thunder

Hunter Black Widow

Hunter Power-Touch

Juic Fiber Shot

Nittaku Monophonic

Nittaku Barwell Fleet

Nittaku Ludeack Fleet

Tibhar Carbofibre

Tibhar Fibre Feeling

TSP Balsa 8.5

TSP Balsa 7.0

TSP Balsa 6.5

TSP Balsa 5.5

TSP Balsa 4.5

TSP Balsa 3.5

TSP Balsa 2.5

Yasaka Synergy

Yinhe Y-13

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253; font-size: 10px;"></span>





Edited by fatt - 01/04/2018 at 11:53am
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zeropong View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeropong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/29/2017 at 3:08pm
Glass is a great material but not as responsive as carbon. I think it is underutilized in table tennis blades, it really brings out the sweet spot and does not hurt the dwell too much, kevlar does the same but has snazzier marketing and can fetch a higher price:P

Glass can also be interwoven with carbon.

One of the most fun aspects of carbon is playing with the "Modulus, Strength" High vs Low, it makes a huge difference in the way it feels and plays. In table tennis you may get someone saying it "has a different feel", but go to high end bicycles or carbon fishing equipment you can quickly see the huge differences in the modulus types.

EDIT: that low modulus is not necessarily better than high, in table tennis high is good for mixing as fatt says with other materials glass or even plastic to mellow it out a bit.




Edited by zeropong - 12/29/2017 at 3:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote simon_xuan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/29/2017 at 3:09pm
Very interesting comparison with fishing gear. I have been using DHS Hurricane Hao 3 blade for a couple of years. It has one layer of fiber glass in the middle. It plays well with larger strokes, but quite different from Wood or Carbon layers. It is not a mainstream design in my opinion.


Edited by simon_xuan - 12/29/2017 at 3:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/29/2017 at 3:20pm
...

Edited by fatt - 12/29/2017 at 3:21pm
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zeio View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2017 at 1:23am
Strength, weight, and cost.

Carbon has a higher strength to weight ratio, but it costs so freaking much.

Fiberglass is much cheaper, but it is heavy due to a low density.

When you combine the two, the weight advantage of carbon is nullified, yet the cost goes up significantly. The strength of carbon is high already, so fiberglass doesn't really add anything of value. That's why it is not popular.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2017 at 1:38am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Fiberglass...but it is heavy due to a low density.

How can something be heavy if it has a low density? Please explain!

Edited by Matt Pimple - 12/30/2017 at 1:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2017 at 2:07am
Low density was a poor word choice. Rather, it should be poor density.

Carbon fiber achieves better properties at a lower density than fiberglass. With fiberglass, to achieve similar properties, you need to use more of it and hence heavier, due to its low efficiency in density.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote al_111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2017 at 4:56am
Yinhe Y-13 has 2 fiberglass layers, and it is AWESOME for looping;) Also, it's very cheap, so won't hurt to try if someone is interested.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2017 at 9:25am
Originally posted by zeropong zeropong wrote:

Glass is a great material but not as responsive as carbon. I think it is underutilized in table tennis blades, it really brings out the sweet spot and does not hurt the dwell too much, kevlar does the same but has snazzier marketing and can fetch a higher price:P

Glass can also be interwoven with carbon.

One of the most fun aspects of carbon is playing with the <span ="st"="">"Modulus, Strength" High vs Low, it makes a huge difference in the way it feels and plays. In table tennis you may get someone saying it "has a different feel", but go to high end bicycles or carbon fishing equipment you can quickly see the huge differences in the modulus types.

EDIT: that low modulus is not necessarily better than high, in table tennis high is good for mixing as fatt says with other materials glass or even plastic to mellow it out a bit.


</span>



Tom, thanx for sharing. You have a lot of valuable insider info.
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fatt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2017 at 12:59pm
There is a nice thread about blades containing fiberglass / glass fiber with a list of blades to which we can add the 2 Nittaku and the Yinhe Y-13:


The list is (with lgxb's addition):

729 L-1

Andro Fibercomp

Butterfly Maze Passion

Dawei Genote F

DHS PG 12

DHS PG 13

Donic Persson PowerFibre

Donic Waldner Diablo Senso

LKT Blue Thunder

Hunter Black Widow

Hunter Power-Touch

Juic Fiber Shot

Nittaku Monophonic

Nittaku Barwell Fleet

Nittaku Ludeack Fleet

Tibhar Carbofibre

Tibhar Fibre Feeling

TSP Balsa 8.5

TSP Balsa 7.0

TSP Balsa 6.5

TSP Balsa 5.5

TSP Balsa 4.5

TSP Balsa 3.5

TSP Balsa 2.5

Yasaka Synergy

Yinhe Y-13


Edited by fatt - 01/04/2018 at 11:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote book4all Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2017 at 2:33pm
What's the thickness of Fiberglass / Glassfiber used those blades?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2017 at 6:25pm
My memory is that fiberglass does not absorb high frequency vibrations as much as arylate or zylon. That may not matter to everyone.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lgxb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2017 at 11:18pm
We can also add dhs pg 12, 13. And 729 L-1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2017 at 11:23pm
ok i'll update to post above :) 

maybe I'll edit the OP with the list not forgetting to link to dauntless' original thread.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lgxb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/31/2017 at 8:30am
where do you see that? I thought it's just carbon.
Originally posted by al_111 al_111 wrote:

Yinhe Y-13 has 2 fiberglass layers, and it is AWESOME for looping;) Also, it's very cheap, so won't hurt to try if someone is interested.


Edited by lgxb - 12/31/2017 at 8:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote book4all Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/31/2017 at 12:29pm
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48620&title=yinhe-mercury-blades-series
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote al_111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/01/2018 at 3:14am
Originally posted by lgxb lgxb wrote:

where do you see that? I thought it's just carbon.
Can't find a decent proof, as there's obviously no up-to-date Yinhe website in English. Still, TT-Maximum, the most reputable retailer in Ukraine, states that Y-13 has fiberglass layer, and they've been directly dealing with Yinhe for years. Another thing - although I haven't looked through ALL their composite blades, among those 30 or so I have Y-13 is the only one that just mentions "fiber" on its face without specifying which one it is (others have "carbon", "thin carbon", "carbokev", etc.) Plus, it does not play like a carbon blade - the 2 I've had were very flexy with A LOT of vibrations

Edited by al_111 - 01/04/2018 at 11:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lgxb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2018 at 11:23am
thanks. yeh, their Chinese version site doesn't have detailed info for y-13 either.

Originally posted by al_111 al_111 wrote:

Originally posted by lgxb lgxb wrote:

where do you see that? I thought it's just carbon.
Can't find a decent proof, as there's obviously no up-to-date Yinhe website in English. Still, TT-Maximum, the most reputable retailer in Ukraine, states that Y-13 has fiberglass layer, and they've been directly dealing with Yinhe for years. Another thing - although I haven't look through ALL their composite blades, but among those 30 or so I have Y-13 is the only one that just mentions "fiber" on its face without specifying which one it is (others have "carbon", "thin carbon", "carbokev", etc.) Plus, it does not play like a carbon blade - the 2 I've had were very flexy with A LOT of vibrations
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:34am
this picture shows the size of a strand of fiberglass compared to a human hair. which one is the hair?



from:





Edited by fatt - 04/12/2018 at 1:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 5:39am
One of my partners play with Donic Diablo. Lovely blade, quite light, flexible with a very good feedback

Edited by Kolev - 04/13/2018 at 5:40am
4x Hallmark Carbon Extreme
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