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larger head = more control

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fatt View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01/10/2018 at 2:18pm
If I am not mistaken, a larger head means more material extending the plane of the blade so the blade will absorb more of the impact, giving more dwell.

Some people say I do not make sense since more material means more weight hence more power assuming the same momentum. I believe their confusion is about thickness v. size of the head so here we go:

More material means 1) more thickness or 2) bigger head size so:

1) A thicker blade (with the same head size) will make the blade flex less so the coefficient of restitution will be higher, that's obvious.

2) When the vibes of the impact reach the end of the head all around the point of impact, they have no way to go but giving back: smaller head = higher COR = faster blade. Bigger head (with the same thickness) = more control = less speed.

What say you?


Edited by fatt - 01/10/2018 at 2:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chairman Meow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2018 at 3:10pm
I'd agree with the reasoning, but I doubt the difference is noticeable. I think the mass added by the extra material would have a more noticeable effect, and would mask this.

You could argue similarly for a smaller cut vs. larger cut rubber, or a rubber with chips on the edges. The impact would travel differently, but it is negligible for most people.


Edited by Chairman Meow - 01/10/2018 at 3:11pm
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-BBC 1 ply Cypress 10mm "The Castigator"
-H3 Prov. Blue Sponge 2.1mm 41 deg.
-H3 Prov. Orange Sponge 2.10mm 37 deg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2018 at 9:46pm
My experience :
I have Roots 5 size 150x155mm and Roots 5 size 148 x 153.
The bigger blade has more vibration which can be felt when blocking at the periphery of the blade.
The smaller blade has more speed.
Member of the Single Ply Hinoki Club
Roots 5, Acuda P2 max.




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fatt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2018 at 9:48pm
Thank you so much for the data. It means a lot from a long time member.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2018 at 9:48pm
The larger head will produce a lower tone. This at least gives a feel of control. When I've actually felt examples of two blades the same except for head size, if you can block out the sound I think they play pretty similarly. That's my thought anyway
W6 fl with Illumina 1.8

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hungry cow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2018 at 11:37pm
When I played exclusively hardbat this effect was very noticable as you really notice the blade since you have no sponged rubber adding an effect and you feel the blade directly.

I am friends with Don Varian who owns all the Hock stock and now sells them and got to try all different variations and with the same blade composition and the bigger and more oversized the head it would be slower, have more flex, and more spin and control for topspin or chopping.  A more compact blade of the same exact wood would have less flex, less spin, less feeling of control, but more speed.

It would be the same theory in a sponge blade but not as noticable as a portion of the setups affect and speed comes from the sponge.  In a sponge blade there will be a bigger difference in weight and bat head speed as you have to multiply the extra weight of the bigger head with the extra size of 2 sides of rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2018 at 11:47pm
IMHO, it depends on what you mean by control - speed on flat hits & better directionality on one hand (smaller circumference blades) and  speed on tangential hits and slightly more feeling on the other (bigger circumference blades)

I've tried IF ZLC vs IF Layer ZLC. I've also tried old HL5 vs new HL5 (in both cases, the 1st blade is larger and 2nd blade has identical composition but has smaller blade circumference).

Larger circumference blade shall be slower only on flat hits. It shall have a bit more feeling but also more flex. It shall be slightly faster on tangential hits (loops). It shall be more non-linear.

To me, that flex implies worse control but slightly more spin potential.

I think most innerforce type composite blades should not be too large - the innerforce structure helps in creating enough flex (relative to the composites in which the fiber is next to the outermost wood layer).

Interestingly, I've never tried a large circumference blade of this 2nd type (ie: of Viscaria or MJ type). I'm not even sure if there are such blades out there (but would love to try them out).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2018 at 2:04am
Had a Timo Boll ZLF

Shaved the head size down to a more compact blade

Blade became way faster with less dwell time (zlf has too much dwell with softer rubbers)
I am a total Newb. Come at me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2018 at 6:06pm
I agree with Slevins thoughts about the Innerforce construction (I also think with ALC it would have been a lot better with a smaller head size, which is exactly what DHS did with ML5).

But here are more things to play around with.
The DHS 301, where the outer ply of hard Koto wood gives you back the control and is a very pleasant blade to hit with.
And a ZLF innerforce type blade is very, very, very different to an ALC innerforce type blade. The Liu Shiwen ZLF and the DHS301 feel to me like polar opposites..

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FH Rubber: 729 Battle II
BH Rubber: Palio AK47 Blue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2018 at 7:37pm
Fatt's supposition is true. Years ago I tested tbe idea by trimming a blade head smaller. You lose a bit of low freqiency flex and the blade feels faster even though is is lighter. It definitely felt like there was less margin for error. Joola and Xiom at various times experimented with egg shaped heads to see if that helped. Tibhar had a more extreme head shape used by Damien Eloi a long time ago. Soulspin offers all their blades in three head sizes and they discuss tbe effect on tbeir site.
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fatt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2018 at 7:39pm
yeah, slevin upgrades/refines the explanation pretty good, ST2ASAP style LOL (10 celluloid orange training balls for the 1st who can tell what ST2ASAP means):

more surface area means more flex and kick back so on loops it will be faster while on flat hits the larger head will absorb the shock and it will be slower. 

YAY!


Edited by fatt - 01/11/2018 at 7:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2018 at 7:45pm
Everything else being equal, smaller blade makes it stiffer. Thicker is also stiffer. There is an optimum for each.
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