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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote emihet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2018 at 7:33pm
they keep going up since people keep paying
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2018 at 11:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 12:16am
Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

Another I hate Butterfly thread because they are expensive and raised their price.. Whatever sport one plays has expenses and if a player tends to use the higher end gear he/she will pay the price. Those that want a cheaper priced rubber product have many alternatives so there is no crisis if Butterfly raises it's price.

People hate it because they know it is still the best. If they were truly happy with their alternatives then they would have no reason to complain. It's like a bitter break up. Honestly, this whole situation gets comical at a certain point - Butterfly made a better product over a decade ago than anything that exists in the market in 2018. 


Edited by bard romance - 04/12/2018 at 12:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 4:28am
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

Another I hate Butterfly thread because they are expensive and raised their price.. Whatever sport one plays has expenses and if a player tends to use the higher end gear he/she will pay the price. Those that want a cheaper priced rubber product have many alternatives so there is no crisis if Butterfly raises it's price.

People hate it because they know it is still the best. If they were truly happy with their alternatives then they would have no reason to complain. It's like a bitter break up. Honestly, this whole situation gets comical at a certain point - Butterfly made a better product over a decade ago than anything that exists in the market in 2018. 

Or, to offer a different perspective...

People like Tenergy because it plays in a certain way and don't want to change, not because it's empirically better than everything else in some undefinable way.  Changing to something different is a pain, takes time, disrupts playing schedules.  People would rather just pay a little more to avoid the inconvenience of change, and a small price rise is another small niggle.

Tenergy being "better" than everything else is just a myth - one that Butterfly no doubt like and profit from.  I can prove it - it isn't better for me.  There.  Done, proven.  We can all move on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 5:02am
What I like the most with t05 is the slow/medium topspin and brushes. For power topspins I like other better. There are other that are also good and grippy at lower gears but then the don't have as much power. 
Never try many, but did try Baracuda, Cornilleau Target Pro 47, MX-P, EL-S, Vega Pro, Omega IV Pro, Sigma II Pro, Palio Aeolus, Stiga Genesis S and M, Rakza 7, Adidas P5, Rising Dragon, H3 Neo.
I can play with them all and the scores aren't that different but t05 give more confidence, it's easier to play when out of place.
Trying omega 7 pro, aurus select (not prime) and rizher 48 at the moment.
To me the rubber has to grab the ball well when brushing and also has to have some power when powerlooping and counter
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mog1111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 7:19am
I hate butterfly's policies. but I prefer 05fx to anything else I have tried all round, rewards you when you play well, springe sponge often helps when you're late. It does not bottom out even in 1.9. Arc is fantastic for my stroke on fh and safe when I want it to be, I can even do the odd spinny push though it is a bit bouncy. I have tried el-s, fx-s, aurus sound, aurus select, sanwei national target, big dipper, hurricane 2 and 3 neo and non neo, victas 401, victas 402, hexer duro amongst others.
Hate the price fixing and only selling to one dealer in England etc. But it is a damn good product, 05fx at least, for me its like a professional rubber for mortals!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 9:51am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

Another I hate Butterfly thread because they are expensive and raised their price.. Whatever sport one plays has expenses and if a player tends to use the higher end gear he/she will pay the price. Those that want a cheaper priced rubber product have many alternatives so there is no crisis if Butterfly raises it's price.

People hate it because they know it is still the best. If they were truly happy with their alternatives then they would have no reason to complain. It's like a bitter break up. Honestly, this whole situation gets comical at a certain point - Butterfly made a better product over a decade ago than anything that exists in the market in 2018. 

Or, to offer a different perspective...

People like Tenergy because it plays in a certain way and don't want to change, not because it's empirically better than everything else in some undefinable way.  Changing to something different is a pain, takes time, disrupts playing schedules.  People would rather just pay a little more to avoid the inconvenience of change, and a small price rise is another small niggle.

Tenergy being "better" than everything else is just a myth - one that Butterfly no doubt like and profit from.  I can prove it - it isn't better for me.  There.  Done, proven.  We can all move on.

Well I thought it was obvious I meant that referring to most people who complain about its price. It has an undeniable feeling of stability and consistency that almost all of the boosted-to-hell ESN rubbers do not. I think between 1) the people who have searched for alternatives only to come back to Tenergy and 2) the people who claim to be happily switched away yet still come into every Tenergy thread to complain, we can form a picture in our head of where things stand. 

We still have yet to see a case of a Butterfly sponsored player opting for another company's rubber (save for H3), yet how many cases are there of non-Butterfly sponsored players using Tenergy? It is also worth  mentioning that most sponsored players who use non-Tenergy rubbers use their rubbers for just a small handful of sessions before swapping, because the performance after the first few hours is no longer up to their standards. 

But if you really are happily switched, more power to you. I surprisingly am as well. Would you still be using your current rubber if Tenergy were the same price? Or even a few bucks cheaper? Maybe you would, but I can't say the same for the majority of the people here who will tell you they are happily boycotting Butterfly but then also making threads about the best Tenergy 05 alternative in 2018.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 10:17am
Well, here's a comment from a first time Tenergy 05 user - to be fair, only played two sessions with it.  I'm currently on a trip through the orient including China.  Before I left, I asked this forum about rubber for my one ply Hinoki. The most common suggestion was the Tenergy 05. Since I've been away from TT for 10 years, and played just three hours a month ago with about half a dozen different rubbers a months that a friend had, I had no reference as to what T05 was like.  So I slapped the rubber on, came to the Orient. And played my first two sessions in China. (one session was stroking a bit with one of China's former women Olympic champ - sure felt nervous.) 

In short, I've never had a rubber that just suite me like the Tenergy 05.  It just felt 'right' - good spin, power, smashes are more accurate, my shots are just better and felt more in control, and it feels great.  More effortless for my style of play. I did not even have to adapt to it after a couple of minutes.  The only challenge is that it is more susceptible to  my opponent's service spin - but that is cost I'm wiling to pay. 

So, here's a plus vote for T05 on a One ply hinoki. 


Edited by MTMT - 04/12/2018 at 10:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 10:33am
Originally posted by MTMT MTMT wrote:

Well, here's a comment from a first time Tenergy 05 user - to be fair, only played two sessions with it.  I'm currently on a trip through the orient including China.  Before I left, I asked this forum about rubber for my one ply Hinoki. The most common suggestion was the Tenergy 05. Since I've been away from TT for 10 years, and played just three hours a month ago with about half a dozen different rubbers a months that a friend had, I had no reference as to what T05 was like.  So I slapped the rubber on, came to the Orient. And played my first two sessions in China. (one session was stroking a bit with one of China's former women Olympic champ - sure felt nervous.) 

In short, I've never had a rubber that just suite me like the Tenergy 05.  It just felt 'right' - good spin, power, smashes are more accurate, my shots are just better and felt more in control, and it feels great.  More effortless for my style of play. I did not even have to adapt to it after a couple of minutes.  The only challenge is that it is more susceptible to  my opponent's service spin - but that is cost I'm wiling to pay. 

So, here's a plus vote for T05 on a One ply hinoki. 

I can second this experience. I am not a Tenergy fanboy myself and I would love to get used to something cheaper, but T05 feels just right, has a good arc, great spin/speed balance, multiple gears, hard sponge, etc etc.  Since I play defense I can't use rubbers that are too fast, low throw, non-linear. T05 has everything just right. 
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:


Well I thought it was obvious I meant that referring to most people who complain about its price. It has an undeniable feeling of stability and consistency that almost all of the boosted-to-hell ESN rubbers do not. I think between 1) the people who have searched for alternatives only to come back to Tenergy and 2) the people who claim to be happily switched away yet still come into every Tenergy thread to complain, we can form a picture in our head of where things stand. 

We still have yet to see a case of a Butterfly sponsored player opting for another company's rubber (save for H3), yet how many cases are there of non-Butterfly sponsored players using Tenergy? It is also worth  mentioning that most sponsored players who use non-Tenergy rubbers use their rubbers for just a small handful of sessions before swapping, because the performance after the first few hours is no longer up to their standards. 

But if you really are happily switched, more power to you. I surprisingly am as well. Would you still be using your current rubber if Tenergy were the same price? Or even a few bucks cheaper? Maybe you would, but I can't say the same for the majority of the people here who will tell you they are happily boycotting Butterfly but then also making threads about the best Tenergy 05 alternative in 2018.

There are so many pitfalls in taking meaning from the behavior of the Pros that any response from me would be so big as to potentially derail this thread.  It's a really interesting discussion IMO though and one worth having so if it's OK with you I'd like to open up a new thread to discuss.

As for this thread and the price increase - hype and groupthink keeps popularity high.  The price is high, and keeps going up, because the market will tolerate it.  There are a lot of perfectly great alternatives if the price is really an issue for anyone.  If anyone says that they have to have Tenergy and nothing else will do and it isn't possible to use anything else, unfortunately I think that makes you a bit silly really.  No one is such a special player that they can't use a different rubber if they really wanted/had to.  If you like it and have to have it for some reason, pay the money.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stavros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:55pm
T05 is the most popular rubber by far. I don't like it anymore because it is less forgiving than some ESN rubbers. Popularity and durability justify the increased price, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 4:33pm
"If anyone says that they have to have Tenergy and nothing else will do and it isn't possible to use anything else, unfortunately I think that makes you a bit silly really"

no reason to ridicule someone for their choice of table tennis rubber!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mog1111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 5:36pm
Andy, I can't get the same safety in arc on loops with anything but Tenergy or H3N, probably a defect in my style and technique. But I truly feel this and believe it to be true. I want to like el-s or something else but I just cant make it work in the same way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 7:46pm
Sorry if it's a little off topic, but are you guys all talking about T05 for your FH? I'm using H3N on my FH, and for less than $30, it has lasted me over 6 months now. And I probably play at least 8 hours a week. I'm thinking about trying T05 on my BH at some point, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Sorry if it's a little off topic, but are you guys all talking about T05 for your FH? I'm using H3N on my FH, and for less than $30, it has lasted me over 6 months now. And I probably play at least 8 hours a week. I'm thinking about trying T05 on my BH at some point, though.

I'm actually switching from T05 on FH to H3Neo boosted with FTL since I had some booster left around and wanted to try it. I still like T05 on BH the most, its a good balance of blocking and attacking for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Sorry if it's a little off topic, but are you guys all talking about T05 for your FH? I'm using H3N on my FH, and for less than $30, it has lasted me over 6 months now. And I probably play at least 8 hours a week. I'm thinking about trying T05 on my BH at some point, though.

I'm actually switching from T05 on FH to H3Neo boosted with FTL since I had some booster left around and wanted to try it. I still like T05 on BH the most, its a good balance of blocking and attacking for me.
H3 Neo is trash with FTL imo, turns to much and if not there just isn't enough speed. I think it's better off with oil style boosters like Kailin and stuff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 12:17am
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Sorry if it's a little off topic, but are you guys all talking about T05 for your FH? I'm using H3N on my FH, and for less than $30, it has lasted me over 6 months now. And I probably play at least 8 hours a week. I'm thinking about trying T05 on my BH at some point, though.

I'm actually switching from T05 on FH to H3Neo boosted with FTL since I had some booster left around and wanted to try it. I still like T05 on BH the most, its a good balance of blocking and attacking for me.
H3 Neo is trash with FTL imo, turns to much and if not there just isn't enough speed. I think it's better off with oil style boosters like Kailin and stuff

cant get my hands on oil boosters here in us, and frankly I don't trust giving out my cc info to sites like ttnpp. 

what do you mean "turns to much and if not there..."?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 2:04am
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Sorry if it's a little off topic, but are you guys all talking about T05 for your FH? I'm using H3N on my FH, and for less than $30, it has lasted me over 6 months now. And I probably play at least 8 hours a week. I'm thinking about trying T05 on my BH at some point, though.

I'm actually switching from T05 on FH to H3Neo boosted with FTL since I had some booster left around and wanted to try it. I still like T05 on BH the most, its a good balance of blocking and attacking for me.
H3 Neo is trash with FTL imo, turns to much and if not there just isn't enough speed. I think it's better off with oil style boosters like Kailin and stuff

cant get my hands on oil boosters here in us, and frankly I don't trust giving out my cc info to sites like ttnpp. 

what do you mean "turns to much and if not there..."?
Buy from chop4ever, dandoy, and ttnpp/prott is fine. FTL is pretty trash in my opinion, I'm nojt sure why it's so highly rated by the community. It makes the rubbers too soft and changes the playing characteristics negatively
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 6:00am
Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

"If anyone says that they have to have Tenergy and nothing else will do and it isn't possible to use anything else, unfortunately I think that makes you a bit silly really"

no reason to ridicule someone for their choice of table tennis rubber!

See, what I really love about forums and social media in general is how people can be so inclined to twist what people say around to the point of insanity - presumably because people just can't wait to be offended and tell everyone all about it.  I'm also prone to this, so don't take it as a personal attack.

So, read what you've quoted from me again, carefully this time please.

I'm not talking about choice.  Everyone is free to choose, and everyone should decide on cost-vs-value with Tenergy.  I won't ridicule anyone's choice.  I mean, Tenergy is an incredible rubber.  Choose away.

What I will ridicule, because it's plainly daft in my eyes, is anyone who says what I've paraphrased above.  Not that they've chosen Tenergy, but that they use it and assert that they can't use anything else.  As if the imagined "gap" between Tenergy and every other rubber on the market is so massive, so unbridgeable, that they have no options at all and simply must carry on.  I find this attitude, as above, a bit silly.  And the excuses for this attitude that get trotted out are worn out and tired IMO.  It's just marketing hype, and many just accept it as objective fact.

Again, there's nothing wrong with picking Tenergy, liking it, using it, paying the money, getting on with life etc etc.  But let's not kid ourselves here - Tenergy users aren't victims.  They aren't trapped in an endless cycle of financial abuse heaped on them by Butterfly.  If they wanted to use another rubber they could - it would just take time to adjust.  Players can choose to not put that effort/time in, and that's perfectly valid - why should they?  But don't dress that up as some objective general superiority Tenergy holds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 6:59am
Yes AndySmith... I could not agree more. Thumbs Up

I've tried all the Tenergy rubbers, and while I like them, they're simply not optimum for my style of play. We have many people in our league that use and love Tenergy, but also have players that don't, and they're performing just as well.
So it's certainly NOT the best rubber for everyone, and I also believe that the majority of people would play at the same level after an adjustment period.

Regarding pricing, I don't think Butterfly Japan have changed theirs, but the exchange rate has changed significantly because of recent international events, so no doubt the cost would have increased for some countries... and because Butterfly has exclusive distributors, these distributors can simply pass on the increased costs to the customers. Ouch

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 9:49am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

"If anyone says that they have to have Tenergy and nothing else will do and it isn't possible to use anything else, unfortunately I think that makes you a bit silly really"

no reason to ridicule someone for their choice of table tennis rubber!


See, what I really love about forums and social media in general is how people can be so inclined to twist what people say around to the point of insanity - presumably because people just can't wait to be offended and tell everyone all about it.  I'm also prone to this, so don't take it as a personal attack.

So, read what you've quoted from me again, carefully this time please.

I'm not talking about choice.  Everyone is free to choose, and everyone should decide on cost-vs-value with Tenergy.  I won't ridicule anyone's choice.  I mean, Tenergy is an incredible rubber.  Choose away.

What I will ridicule, because it's plainly daft in my eyes, is anyone who says what I've paraphrased above.  Not that they've chosen Tenergy, but that they use it and assert that they can't use anything else.  As if the imagined "gap" between Tenergy and every other rubber on the market is so massive, so unbridgeable, that they have no options at all and simply must carry on.  I find this attitude, as above, a bit silly.  And the excuses for this attitude that get trotted out are worn out and tired IMO.  It's just marketing hype, and many just accept it as objective fact.

Again, there's nothing wrong with picking Tenergy, liking it, using it, paying the money, getting on with life etc etc.  But let's not kid ourselves here - Tenergy users aren't victims.  They aren't trapped in an endless cycle of financial abuse heaped on them by Butterfly.  If they wanted to use another rubber they could - it would just take time to adjust.  Players can choose to not put that effort/time in, and that's perfectly valid - why should they?  But don't dress that up as some objective general superiority Tenergy holds.

Got it. So you don’t ridicule the choice, only ridicule the people for the reason of their choice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 10:29am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:


See, what I really love about forums and social media in general is how people can be so inclined to twist what people say around to the point of insanity - presumably because people just can't wait to be offended and tell everyone all about it.  I'm also prone to this, so don't take it as a personal attack.

Yes, like this?

Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

If anyone says that they have to have Tenergy and nothing else will do and it isn't possible to use anything else, unfortunately I think that makes you a bit silly really.  No one is such a special player that they can't use a different rubber if they really wanted/had to.  If you like it and have to have it for some reason, pay the money.  

I don't think anyone is saying "nothing else will do and it isn't possible to use anything else". For most, it's just a simple decision of they like something about it and don't get all twisted over the price, just the same way as you do with whatever choice of rubber you are with now. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:05pm
I don't see what the issue is with AndySmith's post. He wasn't ridiculing anyone's choice of rubbers, he was criticizing people who complain about sotuatiins they chose for themselves. Lineup32 didn't seem to get that, prompting the followup post.

I am tired of all the tenergy price complaining too, and I play t05. It's a capitalist world. Nice things are rationed by price. If you want to make a case for price-rationing being immoral or unfair, maybe look at medical care, decent food, or housing. Table tennis equipment not so much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2018 at 1:07pm
Tenergy price is too high, that's for sure.

Oops, when I checked the rubber used by our club members - there are more players using Tenergy than any other brand, from high level to median level to players below 1000 USATT.  There is strong demand out there.

There are so many different brands of rubbers used by our club members, any brand that comes in second has got to be a distant second.



Edited by skip3119 - 07/24/2018 at 1:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2018 at 2:47pm
First of all, I agree that the price is too damn high.

Second, if you don't like the price, well, don't buy it! There's plenty to chose from.

Third, as some have already pointed out, it is about supply and demand. If  ppl are dumb enough to pay for it, then the price will stay high.

Fourth, some are using the fallacy "ad populum" for some reason as an argument for rationalizing the idea that "Tenergy is the best rubber". Well, no. The popularity of an item only attests to it's popularity and nothing more. Remember that shitty artists like "Justin Bieber" and "Spice Girls" were once popular!

 https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/24/Appeal-to-Common-Belief

Fifth and last, it is a good rubber! But not a good fit for me.



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