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Dangers of waist rotation |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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The part where you are pretty much forced to engage in either waist rotation or thoracic rotation is when you're jammed at your elbow and you got no time to move your legs out of the way....
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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I've been working on the same thing. When I train with the robot for 30+ balls in a row, I kind of get a headache from the breathing method where it raises blood pressure. I'm experimenting with doing a sort of Dima moan each shot, to ensure I get the airflow release lol... but a bit quieter. And relaxing the core just a fraction, seeing how much I actually need to flex for it to be effective without going to the point where I'll pass out mid rally! I breathe in before the pull back and expel during the swing. It's still going through the conscious phase, where I have to actively think about rotating the thoracic and not the lumbar each shot. Some times I can get it going where the flow is becoming natural, and during those portions I don't really have to tense the core much at all. Just slightly. When I over-tense, I feel that's where the breathing/blood pressure issues arise. **also the bug is back, judging by that text... Edited by obesechopper - 03/27/2019 at 10:04pm |
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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Double test, be removed
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Same here I'm experimenting a bit of tensing the core muscles and not bother about sucking in air via the Valsalva maneuver, just breathe as usual (normally). It also found out that you can still activate thoracic rotation with less core bracing, but for me if I don't tense the core I always default to lumbar rotation (yikes!)
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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I'm giving it a little time before making any big changes. To my thinking, the same goes for learning every other technique. At first you're over-thinking the process and staying tense, focusing on every little detail which makes the new movement appear very stilted and robotic. Maybe given a week or two, the natural looseness will kick in and the core/body can relax as needed
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yeah I guess we all have to go through that process :( I just did more shadow practice and just contracting the core without Valsalva still works well, in fact I only needed like 20%-40% of my max core bracing force to enable the thoracic rotation... and I could still breathe and talk properly, it was a lot more natural rather than doing the huffing and puffing all night long! Looks like I really went overkill on the core bracing the first time around haha...
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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Did another round of playing. around 3 hours of continuous ball whapping!
And I can say this... my back (lumbar/spine) did not hurt a single time! I didn't have to stop and bend over or crouch down and stretch my spine at all. No discomfort there at all. By the end of the day I did have a few sore spots... but they were confined solely to the muscles! Those being the left obliques and some in the upper mid back from the thoracic rotating. That alone is a tremendous boost to me! But to top it all off, my shots were amazing! It's like my level jumped a few hundred points overnight. Whereas before I may have felt my motion was too slow to attempt a loop or shot, so I just paddy-caked the ball back with a wristy slap... I can now execute the thoracic turn and unload a killer shot! I was hitting so many winners where the opponent found themselves still standing there in a fancy pose, having finished their shot and failing to return, while I rotated and snapped back a clean winner. Even on the move, which was my original concern, I was able to rotate the upper back and wammo! Send over blistering shots. I barely had any chance to chop at all unless they hit one really wide to the backhand, because my offense had taken such a dramatic turn for the better - there was simply no point for me to chop! When I could hit such great strokes, kill their timing and still not feel any pain in the lumbar region. I'll tell you blah, this has been a miracle change! A miracle! I started experimenting with this on the 19th, and now 10 days later... woo! I think it not only improved the quality of my game, but also vastly lengthened my shelf life playing table tennis! No issues with the breathing either. I was able to relax and rotate freely. Only "issue" was falling back to the lumbar twist during a few points, nothing big. This is the first time I can recall playing in, perhaps YEARS!, where I've felt no lingering lumbar stiffness and achy spine after the session ended.
Edited by obesechopper - 03/29/2019 at 3:31am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Glad it's working so well for you! I felt exactly the same way when I switched too, just amazing speed and power without any lower back soreness anymore! Welcome to the thoracic rotation club ;)
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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Nice rabbit hole
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DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Thanks for the compliments
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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Blah what do you think about Liu Song and the thoracic?
I've always thought he had a rather strange, almost stiff looking forehand. And now when reviewing his technique... it seems that he only utilizes the thoracic portion for the rotation mostly. Kind of hard to tell at times though Check out this clip To me it looks like his waist/belly button is always point forward in the direction of his hips. He doesn't ever rotate the waist across his hips.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Just had a look, he doesn't rotate the waist and doesn't do the thoracic rotation either (shoulders are always in line with the hips), it's a pure hip rotation...it looks weird because his front foot is placed so forward compared to other players
Edited by blahness - 03/31/2019 at 7:42pm |
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obesechopper
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Hmm... then in this Liu Shiwen point at 1:58, it looks like pretty much only thoracic? Edited by obesechopper - 03/31/2019 at 9:12pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Just had a look too, that is lumbar/waist rotation... Notice her elbow position, it doesn't go past her body, with thoracic rotation it is all but guaranteed that your elbow will go to your back.... I'm pretty sure not a single pro that's sort of well known (except for Harimoto )is employing the thoracic rotation, it's a pretty exclusive club at the moment!
Edited by blahness - 03/31/2019 at 10:11pm |
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obesechopper
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Do you have any slow mo videos of players using it?
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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As far as I know Harimoto is the only one using it, you can slowmo his shots from any YouTube video of him playing...
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Btw I've also recently learnt about the power of the heel lift (basically engaging the calves), it actually makes a huge difference in the power output of the stroke.... You can try that in addition to the thoracic and hip rotation ;)
Edited by blahness - 03/31/2019 at 10:13pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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After much experimenting, it seems that the degree of movement for the FH hip rotation is basically limited by the direction of the feet... so during the backswing your hip can only rotate up to where your back feet is pointed towards, and it can only rotate up to the max where your front feet is pointed towards at the end of your stroke.
So if you have the correct hip rotation mechanisms, you can basically control the magnitude of the rotation with the direction of your feet. I think basically there is a tradeoff between speed and power here. The more your hips rotate, the slower your stroke becomes (but more powerful!) and vice versa. For e.g. Ma Long has his right foot aligned pretty much perpendicular to the table when he swings and he has a more or less 90 deg hip rotation. Many other players have that as well. ZJK's FH (though i believe it's one of the sources of his injury) had a pretty interesting right foot alignment, it's around 30 deg which means his hip rotation magnitude is just about 60 deg. I believe this is his secret to his deadly close-table FH counterloop. I'm thinking of a similar principle to use for the thoracic rotation FH with heel lift, given the ample amount of power in the stroke already with these mechanisms we can make it have much faster recovery (optimise a bit more for speed) by reducing the degree of hip rotation from 90 deg to 60 deg, similar to ZJK. So the total body rotation will be something like 60 deg from hip rotation and another ~30 deg from thoracic rotation = ~90 deg, rather than going power-crazy like Harimoto with 90 deg hip rotation + 45 deg thoracic rotation (total of 135 deg body rotation). Since we are not rotating or bending the waist like ZJK it's still safe, and this would allow a much speedier stroke much less liable to getting jammed.
Edited by blahness - 04/01/2019 at 8:01pm |
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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I kind of stumbled on the foot placement just by experimenting with the technique. At the table, I had no need to twist the foot/hips because it took too long when a simple counter could be done with a bit of thoracic rotating and hitting off the bounce.
But if they do a long push/high slow pop up, then I have more than enough time to pivot the foot sideways which automatically seems to rotate the hips, but I use the stomach tensing to hold the lumbar still while rotating the thoracic part. Then for the actual stroke, I swing through with the arm while rotating the foot back around to face the table... but all the while making sure the lumbar stays in the same alignment with the hips, so it doesn't twist at all itself (more like just going along for the ride). After watching harimoto some more, on balls that he is a little too slow reaching I noticed that the right foot would rotate beyond parallel to the end of the table. In order to get the hips rotated enough while keeping the lumbar neutral, his right foot actually pointed away from the table. Whereas if you watch other people taking the same kind of ball, their feet stay more aimed at the table while their lumbar rotates to compensate for the lack of angle on the ball. For me, I think that explains why my loops away from the table had a reduction in power. Since it was only the thoracic rotation, it worked very well close to the table where I could borrow power for my shots. But off the table I needed to rotate the foot and gather more hip force. That was with my defensive setup... when I used a much faster, offensive setup the shots even without hip still had a lot of zing to them. So with the hip I was getting that much more. Which I think is also why I barely chopped at all, and instead hovered right at the edge of the table Harimoto style and tried to kill every ball as soon as possible. And maybe that's partly why Harimoto does the same, which people mistake for a lack of power when really it's the trade off of speed vs absolute power
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I think this speed vs power may not be that binary, we could look at it as a continuum and adjust our feet position depending on how far away from the table we are playing. For e.g. perhaps having the backfoot perpendicular to the table is too extreme for close to table strokes where time is insufficient, but as we move farther away from the table and have more time, we can adjust our feet direction to have more hip rotation for more power.
Sometimes just the awareness is so important! I've just found yet another Harimoto video Edited by blahness - 04/02/2019 at 4:23am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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The other really notable things about his FH is that it has a lot of pronation (very good reminder to focus on the pronation action to brush the ball)...also the feet movement is absolutely crucial especially the rotation of the feet which controls the hip rotation.
Edited by blahness - 04/02/2019 at 8:53am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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One thing to note, the "collapse of the knees" for weight transfer is actually not the Harimoto mechanism. If you lift the right heel and push with your calves and quads against the ground, you move the knee upwards and forwards, the only reason for the "collapse" is if you're angling the force to push more forward with less upward component, the drop in knee height is solely due to putting your legs at an angle to the ground similar to runners initial pushoff when the race starts.
In fact when done correctly, the push off causing the right knee to go forward relative to the left knee and together with the rotation of the feet, is the direct reason for the hip rotation (the hips are joints with no muscles, it can't rotate on its own!) Edited by blahness - 04/02/2019 at 8:52am |
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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Just wanted to add that I noticed the lumbar twisting even during serves. So be sure to work on that area too! It felt even more strange at first, since I usually serve and rotate through to be in my ready position. Quite awkward not rotating the lumbar to start with...
Also for chopping, the lumbar can be held still. It's been tricky for me as well. The heel turning helps a lot there to open up the hips. The ab bracing isnt too taxing either, since the chops have more time between them in comparison to doing counter attacks at the table.
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blahness
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Haha thoracic rotation for serves?! That is a really interesting concept, might actually try it out! I usually just use hip rotation with the right foot turning as I rotate as I serve....
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Actually thinking about it, there's no reason why you couldn't also do thoracic rotation to replace waist rotation for the BH chop...
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blahness
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Hahahaha! Actually looking at Joo there, looks like he's doing it with no issues, the hips are rotated 90 deg and the shoulders are aligned with the hips ie no waist rotation, the shoulders are at the same height indicating no waist bending. It's a pretty good example imo lol....
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obesechopper
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That's a pretty extreme chop too! The picture is cut off but in the full one, his left foot is point out parallel to the edge of the table. It's not angled forward at all, which further backs up the feet positioning. You cant leave your toes aimed at the table and expect to reach that ball without lumbar rotation... his right foot often goes almost flat on the ground. That is, the instep of his foot is nearly touch the ground as if he were going to fall down sideways. https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pingpongboard.com%2Fimages%2Fawb_image1612553202656.jpg
Edited by obesechopper - 04/03/2019 at 9:37pm |
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obesechopper
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If I'm understanding you correctly... the foot goes in line with the leg naturally, because hes having to step out very wide to the bh angle and to do so with the foot facing forward (more like an attackers side shuffle) would feel quite odd and slow. Since hes not pivoting on the foot as youd do with a fh loop. His foot is planted as a base and hes moving in a sideways direction with high speed. Like if you were facing me square on and I threw a ball a bit far to your left, would you side shuffle to grab it? Or turn and essentially run toward your left direction /ramble
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garwor
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Karakasevic? When he is not lazy to do full backswing forehand, his elbow goes way behind.
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blahness
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Just watched some of his matches, he also rotates at his waist and also drops his shoulder significantly... He brings the elbow back using the upper arm without the shoulders rotating much unlike Harimoto. If you look at his shoulders it never reaches the 30-45 deg relative to the hips which is the true sign of thoracic rotation (lumbar rotation does not have this range of motion)
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