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LF: Linear bh rubber with high throw & control? |
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Hozuki 
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Joined: 01/22/2017 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 477 |
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 Topic: LF: Linear bh rubber with high throw & control?Posted: 08/07/2019 at 7:07pm |
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well, you realize that high throw means higher sensitivity to spin? if it's just about bounce, rhyzer can be too bouncy, indeed. now, you can reduce bounce by four ways 1) harder topsheet 2) softer or harder sponge (depending at what impact strenght you want bounce) 3) thinner sponge 4) less (factory) tuning now, as to what actually fits you, you can only find out by trying. I'd recommend fastarc C-1 in 1.8mm or mercury 2 medium unboosted for two different approaches. I find these good in recieving passively. Good luck!
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MydasDiablo
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Posted: 08/07/2019 at 3:29pm |
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I appreciate your contribution, so thank you. However, in my mind Rhyzer 48 is the other end of the scale for what I stated I am looking for, it is bouncy and unforgiving. The main complaint with Rozena is the lack of spin, but it does somewhat meet the brief, although perhaps still a bit bouncy. Mantra M is a reasonable shout, although TTD still thought it was pretty bouncy, Mantra S might be more suited, I would need further impressions from long term users. Boosting is not for me, I don't have the patience and don't like leaving volatile compounds around my young children who are always finding things they shouldn't find and doing with them things they shouldn't. I don't need speed from the rubber on my backhand, I like to rip it so I can generate the power and spin myself, but I need something forgiving on passive serve return and of bat angle when ripping it.
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Hozuki
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Posted: 08/07/2019 at 7:28am |
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select is not powerful. softer than other 45 deg rubber due to soft thin topsheet. only good for close table control. rozena is way more dynamic and powerful and lasts longer. now here is what is best: - esn camp: rhyzer 48 (if you like soft topsheet) - japanese camp: rozena / mantra m (if you like harder topsheet) - chinese camp (with booster): mercury 2 37/ h3n 37 (rare and overpriced) the best choice is obvious, but you are free to get your Darwin award.
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DreiZ
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Joined: 06/01/2009 Location: New York, US Status: Offline Points: 2576 |
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 6:31pm |
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I was going to suggest it based on reviews but ive never tried it. Im testing aurus prime in 2.1 right now and it feels fast but not too fast, has many gears, not sensitive to spin like MXP, it is also lighter than MXP. Aurus select might be toned down version of that with a slightly softer feel. Rozena 2.1 or Aurus Select 2.1 might fit the bill here. |
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Main:
Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
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assam
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 5:13pm |
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Tibhar Aurus Select 2,1mm is grear for BH. At MAX it feels too mushy
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nv42
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Joined: 01/22/2013 Location: india Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 4:10pm |
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With good technique and timing you can make almost 'manage' with soft or hard rubbers. However, at higher levels where returning a high quality ball is a priority using a really soft rubber is pretty tough since it's tough to consistently make good quality returns against lots of spin /speed as compared to a hard rubber. So if your technique is really good (timing mainly) you can use a hard rubber almost as effortlessly As a soft rubber while also having the option of going more extreme. This does not apply to tacky rubbersor Atleast I havnt seen/heard of anyone using them thateasy.
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1.dhs pg2 fl
-FH t05h (max) -BH tibhar genius (max) |
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Slowhand
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 3:20pm |
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That's mostly true, except that for the reasons you stated a softer sponge requires less power to generate mechanical spin. Also holds the ball longer and tolerates imperfect timing better. So easier to control in some contexts. But as you say a softer rubber will usually be more spin sensitive, bouncier and harder to control in many situations.
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MydasDiablo
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 3:17pm |
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I can't dispute that from a physics perspective this makes perfect sense, however my practical experience of using sponges at 40, 43, 45, 47, 50, 54 and 60 degrees tells me the 40 degree sponge makes serve return significantly easier than the others. I have also found the same to be true at topsheet level, the harder the topsheet the more it was impacted by spin, the softer it was the less this was the case, Tenergy 05 vs 64 demonstrates this perfectly. If you have a hard rubber that has tack, that adds another variable and if you set the bat angle correctly I have found you get an easier time than other mid to hard tensor rubbers. It's sidespin (especially long & fast) in particular that seems to cause the most trouble when receiving with harder tensors, backspin and topspin aren't too much of a problem to be fair. As I said, I absolutely agree with the theory, but I have not been able to recreate those conditions in practice. Could it be softer sponges allow for more time to adjust the bat angle to compensate for the spin?
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Fulanodetal
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 2:24pm |
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"The downside with those rubbers is that passive returns of spinny balls are very challenging, softer sponges negate a lot of the incoming spin, harder sponges make the ball grip into the top rubber immediately."
The opposite is the truth. I talked to a pro about this. The softer sponge allows the ball to sink in deeper, thus more of the ball's surface is making contact with the rubber. This means you are taking more of the incoming spin. With the harder sponge, the ball does not sink so much, meaning, a lower percentage of the surface of the ball is making contact with the rubber, thus, you are not affected by the incoming spin as much as with the softer sponge. This is the explanation the pro player gave me. I have used hard sponges ever since. The whole idea that you get more control with soft sponge is a myth. FdT
Edited by Fulanodetal - 08/06/2019 at 2:25pm |
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Hozuki
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 10:50am |
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I play my setup for a year now and there is no need to try anything new because I have tested all modern ESN rubbers in the relevant hardness range so I know what's best. Boosting is not a hassle at all, just take whatever has paraffin in it and use it to reboost one layer every 2 weeks. Takes 1min for applying booster, wait until rubber is flat, reglue 5min, done. Total active work time 6min. The alternative is to buy new rubber, which takes way longer. Or to play with low-performing rubber for antother 3 months which is the lazy option.
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YoAss
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 10:03am |
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To each their own, but my $.02 in the land of boosting is that it's a lot of hassle, and hard to get a constant end quality reliably and reproducably.
Right now Fastarc-G1 is the "lagom" thing. Once you start tweaking and optimizing, it's very tempting to keep going on; there's always the slight suspicion that slightly better is always just around the corner somewhere. If only this, if only that. I find it better to accept, and deal with it, adapt to it, tune in to that, and work from there. Maybe there is a better blade then mine out there for me (although I doubt it), but one thing I'm fairly certain is that the process of constant changes and tweaks is a deeply detrimental one. Once good enough, settle and put in the hours. YMMV, of course.
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Hozuki
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 8:41am |
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I have tried countless ESN rubbers 45-48 on my BH - e.g. Genius, VP, Fastarc G1/C1, Aurus Select, Baracuda, EL-P, Rasanter 47, Rhyzer 48, Bluestorm Z1 and others but I prefer mercury 2 medium boosted. Equal in spin and speed and superior in control. Fools still be not boosting and buying expensive ESN  edit: throw is high just like rhyzer or fastarc g-1.
Edited by Hozuki - 08/06/2019 at 8:42am |
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MydasDiablo
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 2:36am |
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Catapult is required with the plastic ball, period. But, it is how that catapult develops that is important, it should be relative to the power added to the shot, this is the advantage as I see it with harder rubbers. The downside with those rubbers is that passive returns of spinny balls are very challenging, softer sponges negate a lot of the incoming spin, harder sponges make the ball grip into the top rubber immediately. So I guess what I need is a softer japanese style sponge that isn't tuned too much, perhaps Mantra S, Samba 19, Regalis Red or the like.
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trumpet_guy
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 2:15am |
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If you really don’t want catapult, perhaps try Mark V or a derivative like Yasaka Rigan. ( I haven’t tried Rigan.)
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MydasDiablo
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 1:38am |
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Other rubbers I know have a high throw and good control from ratings/reviews but don't know how sensitive they will be to passive serve returns (R7S being very low sensitivity and my benchmark for this search) are:
Tibhar Aurus Select Tibhar Genius Joola Energy Xtra Donic Bluefire M3 EL-S and FX-S would fit the bill in open play and bananas, but their topsheets are known to be touchy when it comes to passive serve returns. EL-P might be ok in 2.0mm...it is touchy in max. Not sure about Mantra S & M... Gordarc 8 47.5 is an option, I thought it played similar to T05 on backhand but less bouncy and less sensitive to spin. Many of these won't be anywhere near as low sensitivity to spin on passive serve return as R7S though, perhaps a soft sponge is what I need to begin with.
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DreiZ
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Posted: 08/06/2019 at 12:42am |
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S1 is soft and clicky. It has like two gears, fast and really fast on an off blade. Not linear, great for punch block style. Easy to drive but harder to spin due to lower arc.
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Main:
Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
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tom
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 4:27pm |
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no fuss option Rozena, or H3 / TG2 37 but you might have to tune
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nv42
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 4:15pm |
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I've used g-1 on my bh for a while recently, you do get good spin outta it when you engage the sponge, however, if you can close your bat angle just enough and generate some good bat speed then thin brushing generates some good spin too.
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1.dhs pg2 fl
-FH t05h (max) -BH tibhar genius (max) |
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MydasDiablo
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 12:25pm |
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I am liking the thought of G-1 1.8mm, that just might fit the bill. The throw is important because the blades backhand has a low throw (Anigre-ALC). I also found that when I used T05 in thinner sponge (1.7mm) it was much much eaiser to return spinny serves and ball feel was great.
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YoAss
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 7:06am |
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That's what I feared as well, but so far I'm having a good time using very thin brushing contact with FA-G1 as well. And to me, the reaction and responsiveness of slightly harder rubbers feels much more intuitive.
With softer rubbers, I have a hard time in the short game. Popups and drifts astray all the time. With harder rubbers, my pushes are tight and sort, or tight, long and precisely on the white. And away from the table, my Timo Boll wannabe second position backhand fares well with a bit of hardness. Rozena's very fine and should fit OP's requirements well. I've played with it for over a year and firmly believe Rozena is an excellent enabler for technique development.
Edited by YoAss - 08/05/2019 at 7:08am |
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max vdh
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 6:29am |
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Fastarc G-1 needs you to engage the sponge, so not ideal on thin contact shots like a flick (but fine on hard flicks then I guess). G1 is more of a FH rubber. Vega pro should fit the bill. I've also heard good things about the rozena.
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YoAss
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 5:14am |
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I'd like to mention Fastarc G-1 here. NextLevel has of course pitched that Nittaku rubber family perfectly, no reason to add to it — other than the anecdotal remark that, at 1.8mm, FA-G1 has proven to be near-perfect for me. Along the exact lines set by OP.
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MydasDiablo
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 4:13am |
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Have you ever tried Fastarc S-1?
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Ingo_Ger
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 4:12am |
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I don't think that a thinner sponge will counter the mushy feeling. Sriver EL might be an option but you really have to adapt your technique to that.
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MydasDiablo
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 4:02am |
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Yeah, I use MX-P on the FH and can control it well there. On the backhand, its great in open play, but pretty touchy on serve return and more delicate shots. I tried R7S in max before, perhaps 2mm is the way to go to counter the mushy feeling. My teammate uses Sriver EL, that could be an interesting option, he can return any serve and block any loop even from very good players (top 100 in UK - not the top 20 obviously).
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Ingo_Ger
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 3:55am |
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It's funny, I'm also searching for a BH rubber with around 45-48 sponge hardness. The only thing which is different are the linear properties you are searching for. I need a little bit of catapult for my BH.
What everybody is writing about the Hexe Grip and Powergrip is that they have a lot catapult. The Hexer Grip should be therefore not an ideal candidate for you. (I'm tempted by the Hexer Powergrip, seems to be perfect for my BH) Otherwise, I've tried Nittaku Fastarc G1 and C1 and both of them might fit to your search. The Xiom Vega Pro is also good. In comparison to the G1 I would say that the Vega Pro has a tad more catapult and the G1 feels more linear. The Evolution MX-P on the other hand is a catapult monster but it doesn't feel mushy due to the hard 47,5° sponge. Might be also worth a try, I really liked it on the BH. Only downside might be the high speed and lack of control with it.
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MydasDiablo
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 3:05am |
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To clarify, Rakza 7 Soft has the spin properties I am after i.e. it is easy to return spinny serves as the sponge negates the spin, but if you banana/loop with it you can still get tremendous spin out of it. It's the kick in the soft sponge and just the general mushy feeling I don't like, otherwise it's the perfect backhand rubber. Karis M would be an option, but lack of availability and the high price where it is still available are the issue.
Edited by MydasDiablo - 08/05/2019 at 3:05am |
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808ponger
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Posted: 08/05/2019 at 1:08am |
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Xiom Vega Def
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BTY Harimoto Stiga DNA M
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DreiZ
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Posted: 08/04/2019 at 6:44pm |
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rozena
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Main:
Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
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Hozuki
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Posted: 08/04/2019 at 6:43pm |
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mercury 2 medium
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MydasDiablo wrote: