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short pips experiment -what equipment |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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Posted: 05/21/2022 at 12:19pm |
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THIS IS AN ATHLETIC GAME, ANYWAY. OVERALL STAMINA IS NEEDED FIRST..
Uranus Poly + strong legs makes you a devilish bombard. Lazy ones should avoid using SP. Be happy. |
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comodoensis
Member Joined: 05/23/2014 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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In case EJing urge comes around, you should try uranus pro soft 1.8mm for short pips backhand. Don't pick 2.15mm unless you're planning to use it for forehand. Uranus pro soft 1.8mm is somewhat unique. You definitely can generate lots of spin, I even managed to do banana flicks with almost identical angle and swing, as if using inverted rubber, due to its soft sponge. While you can generate lots of spin, in passive or active blocking, somehow it is not that sensitive to spin. So, it can generate its own spin, while not being sensitive to spin. Seems paradoxical, yet somehow very easy to use. Plus, it has lovely 'click' sound usually heard from eurojap/tensor rubbers such as flyatt soft, fastarc s-1, stiga soft rubbers labeled as 'sound' variant. Perhaps, it's almost as soft as donic 'big slam' rubbers' sponges Surprisingly, they are using different sponge between 1.8mm and 2.15mm. I bought the same 'soft', both 1.8mm (for spare) and 2.15mm (out of curiosity). And of course they behaved differently. 2.15mm, due to harder sponge despite labeled the same as 'soft', it has less control, and less deception; more suited to be used on forehand side perhaps. Of course no 'click' sound; feels like usual chinese porous sponge. I believe the 2.15mm is using the same sponge as their inverted rubber, Earth 2. Same sponge color, same porous sponge I assume. You can notice the difference in sponge color. The one uncut is 1.8mm. The bad thing is, the 1.8mm will reverse-dome so bad when you take it off the blade Lesson learned. So I decide to boost the spare 1.8mm to flatten it out. That's why on the first pic it lays flat. Still, it's a bang for the buck. Cheap short pips, with sponge way softer than every chinese short pips I've ever used, but somehow with unique perks while very easy to use. Perfect
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Haha I always envied pips players for being able to make weird balls that more often than not get a decisive advantage....now I really appreciate the topspin in inverted strokes which help consistency so much.... I now think it actually takes more skill to succeed in pips, especially when the other player knows how to play against them...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Basquests
Silver Member Joined: 08/29/2016 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 521 |
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Yes, I felt that all too keenly last night.
Since the new technique is still not muscle memory when the pressure is on, the warm up is very important to get the action and timing down and I didn't do that last night. So I ended up in a 7 set match with around 2 clean winners and 40+ unforced errors on my forehand. Pretty embarrassing and I was surprised it went to the decider. With normal rubber it's more intuitive, and you can adjust more easily - if you are hitting long consistently you close your bat, or you try brush more as you say and sacrifice quality for safety. With pips if your bat angle, technique and timing is correct, i'd say its much safer, but if they aren't correct, you can't simply adjust by playing a more passive block or whatever, and the ball will fly off the pips uncontrollably. Just need to put in more hours, as until then, the warm up i feel is pivotal before official matches. |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yep... with inverted as long as I'm in position and can get a good brush on the ball, chances are that the ball is gonna land. With pips if I'm late to the ball or read the spin wrong, use the wrong blade angle it's so easy to make a mistake....
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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Playing with sp teaches you how to play with more accuracy
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BeaverMD
Gold Member Joined: 11/09/2007 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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I would have gone with a more plug-and-play short pips like 802-40, Moristo SP, or Impartial XB . 563 is a completely different animal that is not for just trying stuff out.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I used to play with D09c max on the BH so yeah I am a hard hitter lol... but I've seen your BH smash videos, you're definitely a harder hitter than me on the BH... I actually changed to Tenergy 05 on my main bat to make it easier on my wrist, D09c was taking its toll on me on the BH.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Basquests
Silver Member Joined: 08/29/2016 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 521 |
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A short lived experiment. What was your original BH rubber & thickness? You must be quite physically strong if a 1.5mm pips rubber feels like a top-end inverted 2.0 or max! :D. My wrists, arms and racquet head speed all thanked me, and the Kutchen scales laid the numbers bare. |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hmm interesting, I think my inverted setup currently weighs the same as your pips setup haha... I feel like that's very close to the ideal weight. For me my level dropped huge after using pips - it was probably something like a 4-5 point difference which is ridiculous. The same guy whom I couldn't get a single set using pips, he couldn't get a single set off me when I switched back to inverted.... My unique advantages with the BH inverted receive (strawberry, chiquita, pushflicks, heavy spin/no spin pushes, heavy spin/low spin loops are all so much more muted with the pips.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Basquests
Silver Member Joined: 08/29/2016 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 521 |
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Of course, you are 2 hours or so into using pips, yet have used normal rubber for I'm guessing > 1000 hours, if not more than that. Timing, bat angle, technique etc. all change / differ slightly. It's funny, it's like the small differences are more annoying than if it was clearly a whole different thing, because the temptation is to try and not change too much as you already know it so well / don't want to ruin your inverted technique. For me, the question was, am I willing to put up with a loss in performance in the short term, for medium and long term gain, and what sort of gains should I expect. If they are not likely to be appreciable, why go through the short term pain? Even with the 'bad' technique pre-robot, against players who are within 1 level of me with inverted, pre-injury, I was doing almost as well with a movement robbing injury simply a week or a month into using them, as i was with inverted, before my injury. So I knew that I was probably going to be a more effective, efficient and talented player with pips, and my time horizons for medium/long-term was a lot shorter than it might be for other players - inverted rubber was a handicap as it didn't suit me as much. They are also safer for longevity, a 195+ gram bat will cause injuries eventually. With Fh pips, its 180.0, both injury wise and stamina wise. You can save a bit of precious energy in tournaments in a few different ways [shorter strokes, and a lot of energy if you decide you don't need to loop against a player].
Edited by Basquests - 03/09/2021 at 11:17pm |
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Basquests
Silver Member Joined: 08/29/2016 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 521 |
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This is a technical issue. I had the same issue - it is very hard to deal with heavy topspin, but it is trivial if the technique is good, but it takes a little bit of time to address this. i.e. 7~ weeks of normal practice simply took me from being awful, to having functionally bad technique. The robot giving heavy topspin balls to the same location allowed me to iterate through different options and within a few hours of that practice, i understood and was able to get through to good technique. Now it is for sure much easier to hit through any [weak topspin to elite] topspin ball than with inverted. That's the nature of pips, you can dampen the spin effect you feel, but you have to engage the pips in a certain way in order to do it reproduceably.
With inverted rubber, it is smooth so it's more intuitive and you're already very used to it [so it's far more intuitive / easy to see you're always under/overhitting]. With pips, if you let the ball hit your pips, it will fly unexpectedly, you need to engage it, and engage it in a specific way. Edited by Basquests - 03/09/2021 at 11:16pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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@Basquests
I actually switched back to double inverted setup and found that my FH has significantly higher quality in them (especially spin), it's just that I'm no longer taking the forehands so early due to the increased weight. I feel like it's weird, subconsciously I'm actually adjusting my contact timing based on the weight (or maybe because I'm closer to the table when playing with pips) But tbh I'm not convinced that the pips improved my FH, if anything the lightness of the pips reduced the head heaviness, and reduced the setup weight such that it reduced the quality of my FH even though it was easier to get them in. For me it's more like a quality vs speed compromise, with the double inverted setup better for quality and the pips setup better for speed (faster initiation speed + shorter recovery time).
Edited by blahness - 03/09/2021 at 9:13pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Haha if I had to twiddle I might as well play with inverted at least now I understand more of the pips play and where it's weaker at.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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RDinTN
Member Joined: 03/27/2019 Location: 37075 Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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Yimiao Wang - Black pips forehand - Left handed.. plays a TON of BH.
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ZLC/ULC Custom, Nitt.H3 Pro /MX-S
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RDinTN
Member Joined: 03/27/2019 Location: 37075 Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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Possibly you are waiting too long on the serves?
If you watch the better SP players, contact is always earlier than with inverted. By being early, you can flatten the stroke some and drive the ball into the other side of the table instead of spinning it in - like inverted. Plus by being early you can use more of the incoming spin. You can always twiddle for serve receive when you get that server jamming the pips!
There was a younger Chinese girl training in Maryland 2017/18 with Tiffany Ke who used SP on the FH and I swear she took the ball on the way up! IDK her name but she came in 2nd in the Women's Open at the Arnold Classic 2018. I do know she was terrorizing the east coast while she was here, so you might find some video of her! The young lady that won the Women's Open in 2018 was a former Chinese Super League player! She was in NY as a training partner for Wang Chen. |
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ZLC/ULC Custom, Nitt.H3 Pro /MX-S
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I now understand why players like Sun Yingsha almost exclusively serve topspin long to Ito's BH.... The pips are simply better against underspin than topspin.
Edited by blahness - 03/09/2021 at 10:27am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yeah it's not just topspin strokes but heavy sidetopspin serves too... very very difficult to control with the pips. With inverted those were basically free points, just chiquita or flip and it's mostly game over.... I played someone who had experience against pips and he targeted this weakness over and over again that i almost wanna give up on this experiment lol.... I switched back to inverted and destroyed him easily...
Edited by blahness - 03/09/2021 at 8:53am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hmm I think I'll try this method too haha... I always thought blocking topspin with pips was the easiest thing there is - turns out that it's not! Now I wonder how did He Zhi Wen just block everything back so easily like a boss haha. It's way easier to control the return with inverted....
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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IanMcg
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Maybe at one point but for the most part she played Armstrong Attack 8m with the purple sponge. Miao Miao played 563
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ejprinz
Member Joined: 01/01/2020 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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Yes, I have 4 (Uranus Pro) of them on various blades, I got them from PrinceTT. I started with the medium sponge on a Yinhe Pro-5W (walnut top like Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive) and won the San Antonio U1300 with it . The YouTube video about the Uranus Pro by Maxim Cherepnin helped a lot (from TT Maximum).
I then switched to the soft sponge with a slower blade (Yinhe E3 or W6). This allows me to roll pretty well with the backhand and still have a good topspin on the forehand. The Uranus Pro medium sponge has a similar hardness compared to the Nittaku Moristo SP and the Rakza PO, the soft sponge is softer. I actually had started short pips with the Rakza PO but I found it to be too fast so I overshot a lot with pushing. The Uranus Pro is better controlled IMHO. I also tried the Uranus Pro on some faster blades (e.g. Yinhe T-7 Hinoki/ALC external) and it is really fun to play but these blades are too fast for me for tournaments right now (mainly the forehand inverted - Yinhe Moon, backhand SP would be OK). Edited by ejprinz - 03/08/2021 at 9:22pm |
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Yinhe 980XX, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Nittaku Wallest 1.0mm sponge.
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Shiro
Member Joined: 03/15/2017 Location: San Diego, CA Status: Offline Points: 90 |
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If I were to recommend any pips, the TSP Spectol Red is a very good rubber. I have been using it ever since I transitioned from inverted and enjoyed it ever since. However, the rubber is being discontinued so that's something that's unfortunate since Victas is taking over TSP and Victas is only make 3 Spectol Rubbers now.
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RDinTN
Member Joined: 03/27/2019 Location: 37075 Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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"real problem I had was defending against heavy topspin" That was always tricky.. but you just need to get on top of the ball and block down into the ball. You will struggle if yout try to block that type ball late, as the incoming spin will be the controlling factor in arc height and length.
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ZLC/ULC Custom, Nitt.H3 Pro /MX-S
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ThePongProfessor
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/17/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1528 |
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7-ply blade ayous/limba construction 6.2-6.5 mm for a good compromise between FH looping and BH blocking/driving/hitting, 802-40 or Waran II for an easy entry.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Interesting! I never really watched many Fukuhara matches before, will give it a go. I'm more of an Ito fan lol.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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Fukuhara played with 563
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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It's weird, I feel like I could still generate quite a fair bit of spin, the reports about it being flathit only are greatly exaggerated imo...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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With pushing I could still get quite a lot of backspin (my partner consistently underestimated the amount of spin), but there was a technique which actually allowed me to push with topspin lol that I accidentally discovered, but I haven't really reproduced it. I think you have to kinda hit it with minimal dwell to achieve the spin reversal. But really there's no point pushing when it's so easy to just attack everything, I didn't push much during practice matches because the flips and chiquita was already so deadly. The real problem I had was defending against heavy topspin, it's just a pain compared to inverted because with inverted you can just easily guide block it to the table, with pips it is way too easy to just pop it off the table. I think rubbing it upwards actually killed the incoming spin which created some really sinking blocks. I'll have to watch more Ito matches to see how she does it so easily.... In matches the best defense is to attack first so the other person never gets to do heavy topspins
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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Most people I know consider 563 a medium pip. Certainly longer than most SP.
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Basquests
Silver Member Joined: 08/29/2016 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 521 |
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I was very interested to know if you'd get the same boost to your inverted rubber, from the lower weight / increased head heaviness on the inverted side - glad you got it. Since you have a lower swingweight, and higher swing speed, I'd wager you're perhaps converting this acceleration into more speed than spin compared to before [either due to a slight technical change, or due to the blade's natural arc being lower]; i can't really speak to it since I retained the same blade when changing over. Yes, the pushes / receives with pips become significantly better placed, but do become less spinny/threatening in terms of spin, hopefully this can be rediscovered once we learn more about the nuances about receiving with pips, although a decent well placed receive is still pretty good, it's just nice completely destroying someone off receives. I noticed if I chopped in a certain way, the ball would get heavy backspin [or seem to], but the bat angle is very extreme [i.e. risky], and probably an advanced skill...better to learn the meat and potatoes of what SP's are about, rather than focus on an infrequent issue / they aren't easily designed to do.
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