Short Serve Strategy Question?

mhnh007 wrote: APW46 wrote: addoydude wrote: APW46 wrote: addoydude wrote: i think you gotta have serve deception or at least surprise. if your serves are easy to read or predict, then you're giving your opponent all the initiative. you cannot win this way unless you're playing against someone with much lower skill level. �You can, I know quite a few players who have very readable and predictable serves, very easy to return too, the problem is they are very polished and difficult to do anything with that has not been covered by them for the third ball. If you only have one serve but it is quality, you can exel in attacking every permutation for a return and construct a considerable game around it. There is more than one way to skin a cat you know. i think if somebody is using only 1 easy serve against you, he's probably doing it just to make the game competitive. :) �No, some players play that way, against everyone, most have other serves admittedly, some don't though, you can build a serious game around one serve. Most of defensive player has only 1 or 2 serves.� They just need to serve well enough so you don't get the ball pass them before they are ready.

yes. if you are a defensive player you need only 1 or 2 serves. if you have only 1 or 2 serves, you will become a defensive player.

smackman wrote: yes. if you are a defensive player you need only 1 or 2 serves. if you have only 1 or 2 serves, you will become a defensive player. or counter attacker lol

 Or attacker, if you know what you are doing......If you don't, you continue to press the idea that it is imperitive to have lots of different serves, when in actual fact, just one serve that is of true quality, overrides the most common fault in players, having lots of serves that are poor copies of what they are meant to be.  I'm not suggesting for a moment that it is not beneficial to have a multitude of serves, but it is wrong to preach that it is impossible to reach an advanced standard without.

APW46 wrote: smackman wrote: yes. if you are a defensive player you need only 1 or 2 serves. if you have only 1 or 2 serves, you will become a defensive player. or counter attacker lol �Or attacker, if you know what you are doing......If you don't, you continue to press the idea that it is imperitive to have lots of different serves, when in actual fact, just one serve that is of true quality, overrides the most common fault in players, having lots of serves that are poor copies of what they are meant to be. �I'm not suggesting for a moment that it is not beneficial to have a multitude of serves, but it is wrong to preach that it is impossible to reach an advanced standard without.

+1.. very good point...

I am also not suggesting that I am playing with one serve, mainly to one location is yes... but with different type of serves i.e. spin/no spin, pendulum/reverse, etc... If my opponent is anticipating or moves closer to the spot I normally serve, then it is a good time for me to do a surprise serve.. to caught him/her off guard and playing honest with the spot that I mainly serve...

Again, with a short serve to opponent's FH, I am limiting my opponent to mainly 3 things: FH flick, deep push (down the line or wide) and short return... In my opinion, these are the safest return I can get.. the faster flick they give me, the faster they need to return to their position if I was able to return their flick even with a block... I can live with this option because I think FH flick is the weakest attacking stroke "generally"... So they have to be careful as well with their aggressive flick..

With a deep push return, well, this kind of return is supposed to be considered a good opportunity for us to attack.. and let's say I can't attack for any reason, at least I have moved my opponent from his position.. giving me a chance to attack on the 5th ball.. because by moving him out of position I am hoping a weak return on the 4th ball giving me chance to attack on the 5th ball... is that making sense?

With a short serve to BH, I am thinking that maybe it is more to force BH to BH rally or maybe to do a counter attack style.. where the opponent is tempted or forced to do a BH flick and boom you came with your 3rd ball attack counter loop or smash.. any deep push return will also be attacked... so more suitable for more aggressive play.. Do you agree? Am I correct?

Speedplay wrote: mhnh007 wrote: addoydude wrote: yes. if you are a defensive player you need only 1 or 2 serves. if you have only 1 or 2 serves, you will become a defensive player. How many serve do you normally have so that you will not become a defensive player? (I am actually ask all non-defensive players on the forum).  I actually want to be an defensive player, but my reaction is bad, so to win point I usually have to make a move first, hence I am not a defensive player.  I have about 5 serves but normally use only 2-3 during game, as I don't rely on serve to win point (unless my opponent is very bad in serve return ). Once you reach a good level, the serve isn't used to win points, it is used to set up the point and the most important part about it is to make sure your opponent can't attack it strong and that you have a clue as to where the return will come. I still rate my self as a defender, but when I serve, I try to be a third ball attacker. If that doesn't work out, I turn to defensive mode. The same when I return, I look for the possibility to attack, but if it isn't there, I resort to defending. Don't know how many serves I have, but I have 1 bread and butter serve that is used the most part during the match, the rest of the serves are mostly made to keep the opponent on his toes so he can't be sure that he will always get the same serve.

That's exactly what I mean.  I don't need to have many serves, but quality serve, serve that I do not get attacked on, and if I can use it to setup the 3rd ball attacked, then it's a plus.  Also, I think if during game you only use 1-2 bread & butter serve, then you more than likely know where the return ball will be, and can get ready for it.

I always use my bread and butter serves for the most part, and if they are working then I will persist with them. What I also do, is that as the match goes on and if at certain points of the game I feel I have a safe enough cushion I will try another serve as well. There are two reasons for this. One of course is to see if I can get away with out using my bread and butter serve because I do not want the opponent to get used to it, and the other is to see if I have a fall back in case he does get some idea about my bread and butter serve.
And if during the game I find another serve that works, I will start using that and save my bread and butter for crunch points.

APW46 wrote: smackman wrote: yes. if you are a defensive player you need only 1 or 2 serves. if you have only 1 or 2 serves, you will become a defensive player. or counter attacker lol �Or attacker, if you know what you are doing......If you don't, you continue to press the idea that it is imperitive to have lots of different serves, when in actual fact, just one serve that is of true quality, overrides the most common fault in players, having lots of serves that are poor copies of what they are meant to be. �I'm not suggesting for a moment that it is not beneficial to have a multitude of serves, but it is wrong to preach that it is impossible to reach an advanced standard without.

well if make the choice between having 1 serve and having many poor copies, then you may have a point. but there is a third choice: having many good serves.

i think it is counter to the idea of "attacking" if you use only 1 serve. at the single moment of the game when you have absolute control over what to do with the ball, to not initiate the agression by deception, variety, and surprise, is a defensive mindset.

Also 1 or 2 serves with no deception, your opponent will find the best response after you try it a few times. Even if he cannot attack, he can at least return the ball so you cannot attack either. Or since your serve is predictable, he can even return with deception, variety, and placement. And it would be like you gave him a turn of service.

There is no serve that is so good that an average player will not be able to control the return if he knows it will be the same serve over and over. A short underspin serve for example, can be pushed back short, pushed back long, pushed back to the left corner, pushed back to the right corner, pushed back to the elbow, flipped back, sidespinned, or even looped to any direction.

If you are good enough, you don't really need that many serves. But again that takes away from the serve as an potential weapon.

APW46 wrote: A particular player I know, who would easily be USATT 2200 uses one serve, a short b/hand side/chop to the opponents f/hand...

Are you sure he's not using one serve motion with deception? Do you see his opponent ever dumping the ball into the net, or ever popping up a ball?

For sure, if you serve a non-deceptive short side/chop to a 2200 player, he will not have a hard time returning it safely. If the player you know is owning the 3rd ball, then his opponents must be giving him long or high returns because they misread the spin.

Have you asked this player if he does indeed serve only one way, or if he uses deception?

addoydude wrote: kenneyy88 wrote: If you are good enough, you don't really need that many serves. But again that takes away from the serve as an potential weapon. Who is good enough? The best players in the world all use varied serves and use deception. But relatively speaking, if you are good enough COMPARED TO YOUR OPPONENT, yes I agree.

as in excellent opening loops, good short game, flips, loops, counters etc..

The person serves, they return with a flip, ok they have great loops, no problem.

Then they return short, they can return short or flip, push etc.. and they can still win the point because the rest of their game is good.

But I know a few 2100 that have limited serves, not as simplistic as one serve, but same placement and are not trying to win a point directly on serve because higher level of play, the serve is not that much of a weapon. But you need to have a serve that is not attackable.