illegal (cheating) serve?

Sigma wrote: Several players has questioned Adis about his illegal serve and he also knew about his problem. He said he has been working on it and it did get better. This is an old habit difficult for him to change. I don't think that he has had any intention to cheat someone to win. He doesn't not even care win or lose. He is very fun guy if you knew him. My question is why should have this stupid rule in the first place. I would consider this should be one of spectacular table tennis skill for anyone to learn and use in the game. The rule created can not be reinforced in the tournament. Why we bother to have this rule? This serve should belong to be part of game. I don't think it takes the fun out of the game.

Yes.  As I said, we should separate the issue of something not being legal from the issue of cheating.  And yes, it did not look like a serious match to me. 

There are actually some very good reasons behind the rules (though opinions may differ if they are good reasons) and they aren't really very hard to enforce  - if you have umpires and a desire that the rules be followed.

Sigma wrote: ghostzen wrote: Some stugg are minor, while other stuff might have a huge impact on the game. Try to find your self a good server and ask him to serve you a couple of hidden serves. Returning them becomes a guessing game and have very little to do with skill. While I agree that it does take time to master those serves, it's not in proprotion to the advantages it gives. It is unfortunate that umpires don't make more calls on bad serves, since there are plenty of them around. I'm fairly confident that if umpires started to call the illegal, or even questionable serves, players would learn how to serve properly very quickly. As it is now, they get away with questionable serves, and are often given an advantage by using them, so why change? The fact is that you can do the same to the others who served to you. It is just to increase the difficulty of the game and nothing is wrong about that.

It's the same as today, with an umpire who dares to enforce the rules. The difference is, with the hidden serve, the servers advantage becomes even bigger, resulting in even more third ball kills then in todays game.

Also, it's not about increasing the diifculty in the game, cause in the same way as you make it harder for the receiver, you make it easier for the server. To me, this is about the same as the 2 colour rule, which I'm also in favour of. Simply because I think it's skill that should determine the outcome of the match rather then guessing. Simplified of course, I know that it requires skill as well, but I think you get the drift.

Speedplay wrote: Sigma wrote: ghostzen wrote: Some stugg are minor, while other stuff might have a huge impact on the game. Try to find your self a good server and ask him to serve you a couple of hidden serves. Returning them becomes a guessing game and have very little to do with skill. While I agree that it does take time to master those serves, it's not in proprotion to the advantages it gives. It is unfortunate that umpires don't make more calls on bad serves, since there are plenty of them around. I'm fairly confident that if umpires started to call the illegal, or even questionable serves, players would learn how to serve properly very quickly. As it is now, they get away with questionable serves, and are often given an advantage by using them, so why change? The fact is that you can do the same to the others who served to you. It is just to increase the difficulty of the game and nothing is wrong about that.  It's the same as today, with an umpire who dares to enforce the rules. The difference is, with the hidden serve, the servers advantage becomes even bigger, resulting in even more third ball kills then in todays game. Also, it's not about increasing the diifculty in the game, cause in the same way as you make it harder for the receiver, you make it easier for the server. To me, this is about the same as the 2 colour rule, which I'm also in favour of. Simply because I think it's skill that should determine the outcome of the match rather then guessing. Simplified of course, I know that it requires skill as well, but I think you get the drift.

Edited by Sigma - 09/16/2011 at 3:19pm

Speedplay wrote: How ever, both hidden serves and two color rule targets the same thing, that of hidden deception. If you are allowed to hide your serve, then where is the skill in that? The same if you can use two red rubbers, where is the skill in tricking some one with your anti?

The skill, obviously, is to be able to read the ball's spin independently from your opponent's racket motions.  Werner Schlager has said most pro players have to be able to do this, if they ever wish to reach the top.  Liu Guoliang and Kong Linghui had said it too.  I am sure Waldner would agree also.  Only lowly amateurs are easily fooled by hidden contact or anti.

Speedplay wrote: I don't understand how the price difference is comparable to the serve rule or the two color rule. When it comes to equipment, we all have different preferences, so more expensive isn't always better, at least not for every one. How ever, both hidden serves and two color rule targets the same thing, that of hidden deception. If you are allowed to hide your serve, then where is the skill in that? The same if you can use two red rubbers, where is the skill in tricking some one with your anti? With visible serves and two color rule, you have to be deceptive for real, with out having to hide the deception. Der_Ecthe, I thank you for the kind words, but to be honest, I feel that I could need some good language lessons to clearly express my opinions on some matters.

Speedplay wrote: roundrobin wrote: Only lowly amateurs are easily fooled by hidden contact or anti. I guess the decision to introduce the two color rule was made to protect the low level amateurs who lost to Hilton then. You know, I could turn this around and claim that only lowly levelled amateurs needed to hide their serve to gain an advantage from it, but since we both know that would be as silly as your remark about lowly levelled amateurs being fooled by hidden contact and anti, I'll pass up on this cheap shot.

Please polish up on your English a bit more before you get your panties in a knot again, Martin.  This is getting so predictable it's not even funny anymore... I said "Only lowly amateurs are EASILY fooled by hidden contact or anti".

Wanna take another crack at what's wrong with my sentence above, Mr. Cheap Shot? 


Edited by roundrobin - 09/16/2011 at 5:48pm

roundrobin wrote: Speedplay wrote: roundrobin wrote: Only lowly amateurs are easily fooled by hidden contact or anti. I guess the decision to introduce the two color rule was made to protect the low level amateurs who lost to Hilton then. You know, I could turn this around and claim that only lowly levelled amateurs needed to hide their serve to gain an advantage from it, but since we both know that would be as silly as your remark about lowly levelled amateurs being fooled by hidden contact and anti, I'll pass up on this cheap shot. Please polish up on your English a bit more before you get your panties in a knot again, Martin.  This is getting so predictable it's not even funny anymore... I said "Only lowly amateurs are EASILY fooled by hidden contact or anti".Wanna take another crack at what's wrong with my sentence above, Mr. Cheap Shot?

Wow RR, this is low even coming from you. If you like, we can have the discussion in Swedish instead, as that surely would suit me a lot better. So, how is your Swedish coming along?

I take it my English at least is good enough for you to understand? If not, I'm happy to try to explain it using other words.

For the record, you have previously tried to insult my level of play, which is really hilarious, since I've never claimed to be a skilled player. I'm not even close to being skilled, even though I suspect I might beat some of the players who thinks they are skilled. But, attacking my low level simply won't cut it.

Want to have another go at me? Sure thing RR, your true character is well known to most people here, so fire away.

Your best shot is attacking my poor English? Fine by me, it's not my primary language and I'm glad we have found one thing that you beat me at.

Perhaps now we can get back to the discussion about hidden serves again, or do you wish to derail the tread even further?

Speedplay wrote: Your best shot is attacking my poor English? Fine by me, it's not my primary language and I'm glad we have found one thing that you beat me at. Perhaps now we can get back to the discussion about hidden serves again, or do you wish to derail the tread even further?

"Even further"?  I have not even derailed it one bit, you did.  If you can't even comprehend what I wrote, what's there to discuss it with you?  LOL. 

Every time I posted something that remotely interested you, you marched in with your garbage cheap shots that aim at me personally, just like you did at OOAK. 

When I said "lowly amateurs" it was not about YOU.  Get over yourself already if you want to "discuss" anything productive here.  This thread is not about you or me.

Originally posted by Sigma The fact is that you can do the same to the others who served to you. It is just to increase the difficulty of the game and nothing is wrong about that.

then it will just become a matter of who can push the limits more and get away from it. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of sportsmanship...This is the problem that I spoke about the game becoming harder to actually play. Not technically Like Wturber said anyone can serve to the rules easy but dealing with people who think/say that the serve is bad or tuning or what ever really can be terrible. When there's no umpire or matches are umpired by the a team mate. There's chance for both or one to think a service is bad. Then we spend a few mins talking about it. Then after the match the other player complains that I have cheated him or something like that. This takes the reason I play the game out of it...fun. How do you police something when the umpires who police it aren't around?.

smackman wrote:  Well back to the topic, leaving the free arm is not allowed, the same for low toss serves and the same colur rubber on both sides, in most cases its not a cheating thing but just bad hadits or no effort to make it better and/or no real enforcement, I would say 30% of my serves are not from a flat hand and althogth I have been told before I still just toss it up with a cupped hand only because 99% of my games no one mentions it

The rules do not require a flat hand anymore.  They simply require an "open palm" on your stationary free hand.  You are allowed to cup your hand a bit, just not so much that you could be gripping the ball or that it hides the ball from your opponent.

This passage from the ITTF Handbook for Match Officials explains the intent.

10.2 Free Hand
10.2.1 The requirement for the server’s free hand to be open is intended to ensure that the ball is not gripped in any way, so that the player cannot impart spin to the ball as he throws it. In applying the law the umpire should be less concerned with details such as the precise curvature of the server’s free hand than with satisfying himself that the ball is resting freely on its palm.
10.2.2 To help ensure that the ball can be seen resting freely on the palm it is required to be stationary above the level of the playing surface. The free hand may not be held stationary, dropped below the table surface and then brought upwards with a continuous sweep of the arm to throw the ball; if the hand is not brought to rest again above the level of the playing surface the service is illegal.
10.2.3 The ball, but not necessarily the whole of the free hand, must also be behind the server’s end line from the start of service until it is projected upwards. Thus a player may begin service with his arm and part of his free hand over the playing surface without being penalised, provided the ball itself is clearly behind the end line.




Edited by wturber - 09/16/2011 at 9:40pm

icontek wrote: The balco comment was spot on. pro players break rules because their paycheck depends on it. boosting, hiding serve. Etc yourself because the pros do it is like an adult league softball player juicing with steroids...

+1 for this!

ghostzen wrote: <table width="99%"><t><tr><td ="BBquote">Originally posted by Sigma The fact is that you can do the same to the others who served to you. It is just to increase the difficulty of the game and nothing is wrong about that. </td></tr></t></table>then it will just become a matter of who can push the limits more and get away from it. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of sportsmanship... This is the problem that I spoke about the game becoming harder to actually play. Not technically Like Wturber said anyone can serve to the rules easy but dealing with people who think/say that the serve is bad or tuning or what ever really can be terrible. When there's no umpire or matches are umpired by the a team mate. There's chance for both or one to think a service is bad. Then we spend a few mins talking about it. Then after the match the other player complains that I have cheated him or something like that. This takes the reason I play the game out of it...fun. How do you police something when the umpires who police it aren't around?.

The rules wheren't written for the for those who don't have an umpire. I understand the problem with some of the rules, especially for those who plays with out an umpire, but at the same time, we have to realise that the rules are made for the competitions with an umpire. It's pretty much the same with any sport. Imagine a game of football with out an umpire, several rules would be hard to play by, such as the off side rule.

Sigma wrote: Serve should also consider to be part of table tennis skill. Both players have the same advantage to use that.

No one's disputing that.

But breaking the hidden serve rule deforms the gameplay in the same way that breaking the Two Color rule would; it requires very little skill on the part of the person breaking the rule, and orders of magnitude greater skill on the part of the receiver to read the spin change.