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Short pips advices |
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thefred 
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Joined: 03/17/2004 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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 Topic: Short pips advicesPosted: 06/05/2012 at 6:13pm |
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After about 15 years of Table Tennis, I need to find new motivation. Just for fun, two years ago, I purchased two inexpensive short pips : Globe 889-2 2,0mm Red and 729 802-40 1,8mm red. Last week, I glued the 802-40 on a Butterfly Viscaria Light for the backhand, and a lkt xp 1,8 for the forehand. The FH was a complete disaster. I am used to hard tacky rubber (Palio Thor's) on All-round blade, and I just couldn't topspin the ball two times in a raw. Smatch was ok even though it is not my playing style. Surprisingly, I immediately felt confident with the backhand ... Block and service return are just easy, drive is a pleasure, and I could be very aggressive most of the time. I won against several players, some stronger than me, mainly playing with my backhand, used to be my weakness usually. I found a lot of pleasure in the game and a new challenge for the next season. I just wonder what would be the best setup? As for blade, I have several options: TSP Balsa+ fiber 4.5 ( current blade ) Butterfly Viscaria Light (use to too fast for my forehand) Butterfly Timo Boll Spark ( great feel but sometime too much flex ) Butterfly Keyshot Light ( maybe the most adapted to Short Pips ?) Galaxy K4 Regarding the Short pip, would you advise 889-2 2.0mm or 802-40 1.8? Forehand should be Palio Thor's or CJ8000 biotech depending on blade speed. Could you also give me some training examples, technique and tactic advises, or 'must see' videos? Thank You |
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Butterfly Timo Boll Spark
FH DHS Neo TG3 BH Palio CJ8000 Biotech 36-38 1.8mm http://www.palette-bleue.net |
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cotdt
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Joined: 10/19/2010 Location: Bay Area, CA Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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Posted: 06/05/2012 at 6:24pm |
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In the modern game, I would advise a topspin oriented game with short pips, ie. LGL's game. His shots have more spin than most inverted players. Therefore, spinny pips on max (soft) sponge.
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Nittaku Resound
FH: Joola Timeless BH: Joola Timeless |
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Loop40mm
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Posted: 06/05/2012 at 6:42pm |
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I played short pips for three years on the shakehan backhand. I started out with 802-40 2.0mm and later switched to 1.8mm. If you ever want to consider another short pips, consider Spectrol. I was able to attack underspin better with Spectrol. I did a small motion drive on the backhand, imitating Jiang Huajun from Hong Kong. |
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Stiga Ebenholz NCT V
FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
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GeneralSpecific
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Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2811 |
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Posted: 06/05/2012 at 6:55pm |
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Keyshot light with thor's and 802-40
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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cotdt
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Posted: 06/05/2012 at 7:31pm |
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802-40 is so slow!
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Nittaku Resound
FH: Joola Timeless BH: Joola Timeless |
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tuco
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Joined: 06/11/2007 Location: ValleyOfTheSun Status: Offline Points: 1432 |
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Posted: 06/05/2012 at 8:27pm |
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I used to play Tyranno on a Balsa+5.5. I think the Balsa+ series blades are made for short pips. |
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The Dark Side is:
"Quicker, easier, more seductive" - Yoda |
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Baal
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Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Posted: 06/05/2012 at 9:15pm |
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Any of those blades will do and 802-40 is a great way to learn the style since it is not that big a leap from inverted and it is inexpensive. I suppose you can experiment and decide which blade you like best. Later if you like, you can use more challenging (for you and your opponent) pips like Spectol. DOn't worry about the fact that 802-40 is slow. It is fast enough and very spinny. It is still a very different ball than will be coming from your forehand side. Also, SP are lighter than inverted, so you can use a bit heavier blade if you want. The thing you will need to work on more than you think is retooling your forehand and footwork and instincts to play closer to the table. Back off even a little bit with SP and there is not a lot you can do.
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jinlai
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Posted: 06/05/2012 at 11:12pm |
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Basically SP comes from China, Japan or Europe. Chinese ones are hard and suitable for hard hit as compared to Japanese and European ones are more suitable for spin and some comes built-in tensor like Andro Blowfish. It all depends on what you use SP for and I am sure you can make a good choice. Regarding thickness, the thicker the more speed/spin, the thinner the more control and lighter.
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pnachtwey
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Posted: 06/05/2012 at 11:14pm |
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I agree about starting out with 802-40. I also have 802 1.5mm mounted on the BH of one of my Samsonov Alphas. There is a big difference between 802 1.5mm and 802-40 1.8mm. 802 1.5 blocks and hits well but it is really a line of sight rubber. 802 1.5mm is easy to control as long as you stick to line of sight shots. It is hard to get enough top spin on a ball unless incoming ball doesn't have much top spin of its own.
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bbkon
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Joined: 04/19/2005 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 7260 |
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Posted: 06/06/2012 at 2:26am |
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the dilemma is not the pips, is what is under the topsheet, a crappy sponge that feels dead, i thought that 802 sucked because the first sheet i tried had a dogdy sponge |
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bbkon
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Posted: 06/06/2012 at 2:32am |
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tyranno's pips dont last |
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Baal
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Posted: 06/06/2012 at 3:31am |
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I actually have more control with 2.1 mm Raystorm than thinner, especially blocking.
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AcudaDave
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Posted: 06/06/2012 at 10:08am |
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If you use SP to attack with then try Joola Ultra Express. This SP is spinny and fast, and it's very easy to attack underspin with. Get either 1.8 or 2.0. Raystorm is ok, but it's a lower throw angle and you will hit a lot of balls into the net if not careful. Spectol is good too, but Ultra Express is better. Take it from me, I've tried both of them.
If you're looking to block and cause some disturbance to your opponent then try Dr. Neubauer Diamant in 1.8. This is what I'm currently playing with. It's easy to attack underspin and blocks are very disturbing.
Lastly...I would not recommend using a carbon blade as they don't seem to do as well with SPs or MPs. Find a good all-wood blade that is Off- or All+.
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Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade
Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
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cole_ely
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Posted: 06/06/2012 at 10:57am |
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Not if you put it on a different sponge |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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thefred
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Posted: 06/06/2012 at 12:54pm |
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Thank you for your help.
According to your comments, between 802-40 1.8 and 889-2 2.0, the first seems to be a better choice for a pips out beginner like me. I will try the TSP 4.5 and the Keyshot Light and pick the one I feel more confident (or efficient) with. Could you advise me on some video?
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Butterfly Timo Boll Spark
FH DHS Neo TG3 BH Palio CJ8000 Biotech 36-38 1.8mm http://www.palette-bleue.net |
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thefred
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Posted: 06/10/2012 at 10:39am |
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Hi,
I made some drill against a Newgy robot in order to figure out what could be the weakness or difficult shot with a 802-40 short pip. Short Game is generally quite easy. It is not possible (for me) to be dangerous with short or deep underspin, but on the other hand it is compensated by the ability to flip any ball, and vary the length, the speed, and the placement. Against top spin, loop, power loop, this is where the short pips is the best (again, for me). Of course, even if it is possible to top spin against topspin, it seems not effective. Not enough spin, not enough speed. But the drive, block, passive or active, is so easy that is must be a pleasure to play against a two wings looper. The only thing I must be careful is to take the ball early or at least at the top of the bounce. Later, it is more difficult and less effective. Deep underspin is where I struggle. What should I do? With inverted I used to vary with slow spiny loop and sometimes deep underspin. This tactic with SP is erratic, lots of loop just go into the net, and underspin just fly away. And even if the ball land on the table, the lack of spin make it an easy shot for the opponent. So I tried to take the ball earlier, but it is so difficult, and I made so many mistakes ... Is there a special technic or tactic? Please help! Fred
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Butterfly Timo Boll Spark
FH DHS Neo TG3 BH Palio CJ8000 Biotech 36-38 1.8mm http://www.palette-bleue.net |
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chopchopslam
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Joined: 09/28/2011 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 703 |
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Posted: 06/10/2012 at 11:18am |
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With short pips, the best approach for me against heavy underspin was an aggressive push, almost a short chop. But it takes some practice to get the angle right. It will be very difficult for your opponent to judge the spin on the ball because you are hitting through the spin somewhat.
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Butterfly Grubba Pro
Tenergy 80 National Team Pogo LP .6mm |
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Baal
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Posted: 06/10/2012 at 11:25am |
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Just practice. It is a major change from inverted. It won't all come at once.
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pnachtwey
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Posted: 06/10/2012 at 12:11pm |
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802-40 isn't the best chopping rubber but it will work in a pinch. Learn to return back spin balls with top spin. This requires a quick upwards motion behind the ball. When practicing with the Newgy start with little back spin that you can handle and only increase the back spin after you become consistent at the current level. It is easy to become 'grooved' where you make the same swing over and over again. This is good for starters but not realistic. Vary the side placement of the ball and the balls speed. Again, increase the variances slowly. When practicing with the Newgy I do try to hit with balls with different strokes because reality is that you never are simply moving your arm back and forth in a repetitive manner. Try hit every other ball with top spin and chop the other balls. Mistakes I see made too often is to not use the forearm and wrist enough. Not starting with the paddle low relative to the balls path. Rushing it, my problem, where one tries to hit the ball too far out in front. |
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thefred
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Posted: 06/10/2012 at 3:56pm |
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Thank you for the replies. To Chopchopslam, Do you mean chop away from the table? Something like in this video? to Pnachtwey: 'quick upwards motion behind the ball' and ' use the forearm and wrist enough' In the video, is it the right motion? Of course I guess it must be more upward for heavy underspin Again, many thanks Fred |
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Butterfly Timo Boll Spark
FH DHS Neo TG3 BH Palio CJ8000 Biotech 36-38 1.8mm http://www.palette-bleue.net |
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chopchopslam
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Posted: 06/10/2012 at 6:44pm |
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No, not at all like that. This is an at-the-table shot, and the chop is shorter and more forward.
Here this guy is doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM8kn5NYULg |
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Butterfly Grubba Pro
Tenergy 80 National Team Pogo LP .6mm |
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pnachtwey
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Posted: 06/10/2012 at 8:21pm |
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That serve in the video didn't have a lot of back spin on it. If you look closely the server changed the angle of the paddle at the last few millisecond. The receiver obviously made a good stroke for the spin and rubber she uses but they don't look like short pips. The receiver's stroke and angle of the paddle are almost in the same plane. The receiver's stroke was just a little more forward that being in the same plane as the paddle blade. I wouldn't close my paddle quite that much with short pips but I would make a an otherwise similar stroke. With short pips you have to hit through the ball a bit more to get the rubber to grab the ball and the paddle can't be as closed as in the video but this is a matter of degree. I play with 802 1.5mm and 802-40 1.8mm. 802 1.5mm will not grab the ball when the paddle is closed too far and the ball will go into the net. The same goes for 802-40 but the paddle can be a little more closed. When I play wit T05 on my BH it seems like the paddle can be closed more than 45 degrees and the rubber still grabs the ball and springs it over the net. There is a huge difference between T05 and 802-40. |
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racquetsforsale
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Posted: 06/11/2012 at 1:09am |
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P,
While you're on the subject of the rubber "grabbing" the ball, is that sensation attributed to the stretching of the topsheet? In other words, the more the topsheet stretches and springs back, the more pronounced the sensation of the rubber grabbing the ball. Furthermore, the more the rubber grabs the ball, the higher its throw, right?
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pnachtwey
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Posted: 06/11/2012 at 12:16pm |
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Racquestsforsale, there are two parts to this. One is grabbing the ball where the ball stops sliding on the surface of the top sheet. This is mainly a function of the coefficient of friction and probably happens a few micro seconds after contact in most cases. Most inverted rubbers are pretty good at this but there are differences. The second part is the tangential stretching and the snap back. It is the tangential stretching and snap back that makes it so you get more spin than you normally would from friction alone. If spin was simply dependent on friction alone then there would be a upper limited on the spin that can be generated and it would be simply limited by the tangential paddle speed. The better rubbers stretch across the surface and snap back. The snap back adds to the tangential paddle speed to generate more spin. Now one may think that I could hit with short pips and just move my wrist and forearm faster to make up for the lack of tangential stretching but I have found this isn't always the case. Short pips like my 802 and 802-40 don't grab the the ball nears well as my inverted rubbers. If I try to close my SP paddle as much as I close my TBS+2xT05, and try to make up for the lack of tangential stretching with more wrist and forearm speed I still fail because the pips won't grab the ball and it goes into the net. If the SP did grab the ball I could still make a good BH loop like with the T05 but it would simply take more wrist and forearm speed to make up for the lack of tangential stretching and snapping back.
Counter looping high speed and spinny balls with SP is foolish. An spinny incoming ball is a difficult ball for a SP to grab because it is spinning so fast and your paddle is trying to reverse the spin. It is possible to loop a low speed low spin ball but how often do you see those? Haven't you ever wondered how incoming ball with lots of top spin is returned with top spin even though you make a passive block and you didn't generate the spin? The rotational momentum of the incoming ball stretches your rubber tangentially and downwards on impact. When your rubber snaps back up it reverses the spin on the ball. This is how rubbers like T05 make it so easy to return top spin with top spin and keep the ball on the table without much effort. Rubbers that don't snap back basically stop the spin. |
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Loop40mm
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Posted: 06/11/2012 at 12:51pm |
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Thanks pnachtwey for the detail explanation. Now I understand how a brush block returns so much spin back to my opponent after he topspins the ball to me. Some rubbers return more spins than others. With Haifu Shark II on my backhand and my opponent looped to me, a soft brush block returned a lot of spin back to him. |
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Stiga Ebenholz NCT V
FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
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thefred
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Posted: 06/12/2012 at 12:18pm |
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Thank you for the link! A video is worth a thousand words, especially for my poor level of English  |
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Butterfly Timo Boll Spark
FH DHS Neo TG3 BH Palio CJ8000 Biotech 36-38 1.8mm http://www.palette-bleue.net |
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thefred
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Posted: 06/12/2012 at 2:35pm |
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Hi,
chopchopslam advised me an agressive chop at the table. Pnachtwey goes for a 'quick upwards motion behind the ball' and ' use the forearm and wrist enough' Sharad Pandit, using Short pips on both sides, seems to agree with both of them... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HtxX45P59Sw#t=241s Thanks again |
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Butterfly Timo Boll Spark
FH DHS Neo TG3 BH Palio CJ8000 Biotech 36-38 1.8mm http://www.palette-bleue.net |
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thefred wrote: