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illegal (cheating) serve? |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Yes. As I said, we should separate the issue of something not being legal from the issue of cheating. And yes, it did not look like a serious match to me. There are actually some very good reasons behind the rules (though opinions may differ if they are good reasons) and they aren't really very hard to enforce - if you have umpires and a desire that the rules be followed. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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Sigma
Beginner Joined: 06/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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The fact is that you can do the same to the others who served to you. It is just to increase the difficulty of the game and nothing is wrong about that.
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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It's the same as today, with an umpire who dares to enforce the rules. The difference is, with the hidden serve, the servers advantage becomes even bigger, resulting in even more third ball kills then in todays game. Also, it's not about increasing the diifculty in the game, cause in the same way as you make it harder for the receiver, you make it easier for the server. To me, this is about the same as the 2 colour rule, which I'm also in favour of. Simply because I think it's skill that should determine the outcome of the match rather then guessing. Simplified of course, I know that it requires skill as well, but I think you get the drift. |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Speedplay, you are a joker. English is Ur 2nd or 3rd language and you use it better than a lot of USA peoples. Don't anyone give Speedplay a pass when he has to use language as a crutch. Speedplay is level 3 solid minimum in English. Level 4 is native proficiency.
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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Sigma
Beginner Joined: 06/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Serve should also consider to be part of table tennis skill. Both players have the same advantage to use that. What is the advantage of $75 Tenergy with $200 butterfly blade vs $7 cheap Chinese rubber with $20 bat? This might be bad example but same argument. Why not treat the same? With the hidden serve, do you believe that whole table tennis game will become just serve game??? Edited by Sigma - 09/16/2011 at 3:19pm |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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I don't understand how the price difference is comparable to the serve rule or the two color rule. When it comes to equipment, we all have different preferences, so more expensive isn't always better, at least not for every one.
How ever, both hidden serves and two color rule targets the same thing, that of hidden deception. If you are allowed to hide your serve, then where is the skill in that? The same if you can use two red rubbers, where is the skill in tricking some one with your anti? With visible serves and two color rule, you have to be deceptive for real, with out having to hide the deception. Der_Ecthe, I thank you for the kind words, but to be honest, I feel that I could need some good language lessons to clearly express my opinions on some matters. |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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The skill, obviously, is to be able to read the ball's spin independently from your opponent's racket motions. Werner Schlager has said most pro players have to be able to do this, if they ever wish to reach the top. Liu Guoliang and Kong Linghui had said it too. I am sure Waldner would agree also. Only lowly amateurs are easily fooled by hidden contact or anti. |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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I guess the decision to introduce the two color rule was made to protect the low level amateurs who lost to Hilton then. I think it's only fair that my opponent gets to see which rubber I use to strike the ball with, in the same way as I think it is fair for them to see the contact point of my serve. You know, I could turn this around and claim that only lowly levelled amateurs needed to hide their serve to gain an advantage from it, but since we both know that would be as silly as your remark about lowly levelled amateurs being fooled by hidden contact and anti, I'll pass up on this cheap shot. |
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Sigma
Beginner Joined: 06/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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What about deceiving shot people used a lot, look at one side but shot the ball the other way? Can we call it cheat because we did not tell them where we are going to put ball as it looks like to be? It sounds like silly question but isn't that the same as the question if I can not see or tell your serve spin, you are cheating. Not only you should be able to read some no matter how they hided or can tell by how the ball bounced but also you can have the same power to deceive your opponent by doing the same thing or maybe can do better. It is fare game to both players. If you said it needs time to master it, it is a skill needed to be learned. BTW I don't see any problem on the two color rule. No one seems to complain enforcing that rule.
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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It's not only cheap, it's right in your ballpark, Martin. (BTW it's spelled leveled instead of levelled, but the correct usage in this case is "low-level", not "lowely leveled".) |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Please polish up on your English a bit more before you get your panties in a knot again, Martin. This is getting so predictable it's not even funny anymore... I said "Only lowly amateurs are EASILY fooled by hidden contact or anti". Wanna take another crack at what's wrong with my sentence above, Mr. Cheap Shot? Edited by roundrobin - 09/16/2011 at 5:48pm |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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If they look the other way, it is something they do to trick us, just like it is perfectly legal and a part of some players skill to hit different areas of the blade to create different effect. All of this comes down to skill of the user. To hide your serve don't take much skill, and the same to twiddle your blade and trick your opponent by using another rubber then he expects. With the two color rule, he can still see what rubber you uses and gets a fair chance at reading your game/stroke. As for the hidden serve, try picture a magician who performs a trick in front of you; If he does it so you can see the entire trick, but yet manages to trick you, he is a skilled magician. If he how ever hiddes while performing the trick so you can't see it, it doesn't take as much skill. That is the best explenation I can give you as to why I think that the rule regarding hidden serves is a good rule. |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Wow RR, this is low even coming from you. If you like, we can have the discussion in Swedish instead, as that surely would suit me a lot better. So, how is your Swedish coming along? I take it my English at least is good enough for you to understand? If not, I'm happy to try to explain it using other words. For the record, you have previously tried to insult my level of play, which is really hilarious, since I've never claimed to be a skilled player. I'm not even close to being skilled, even though I suspect I might beat some of the players who thinks they are skilled. But, attacking my low level simply won't cut it. Want to have another go at me? Sure thing RR, your true character is well known to most people here, so fire away. |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Man your English comprehension skills truly stink... You should stick with Swedish-language chatrooms. Seriously. |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Your best shot is attacking my poor English? Fine by me, it's not my primary language and I'm glad we have found one thing that you beat me at.
Perhaps now we can get back to the discussion about hidden serves again, or do you wish to derail the tread even further? |
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ZingyDNA
Platinum Member Joined: 09/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 2373 |
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then it will just become a matter of who can push the limits more and get away from it. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of sportsmanship... |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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"Even further"? I have not even derailed it one bit, you did. If you can't even comprehend what I wrote, what's there to discuss it with you? LOL. Every time I posted something that remotely interested you, you marched in with your garbage cheap shots that aim at me personally, just like you did at OOAK. When I said "lowly amateurs" it was not about YOU. Get over yourself already if you want to "discuss" anything productive here. This thread is not about you or me. |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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The same with boosters, treated pips, specially-made rubbers and blades just for pros, etc., etc. And who knows how many are juicing with Balco Clear too. It's the same with every pro sport. Rules are set as absolute limits and most pro players will attempt to push them as far as they can. Edited by roundrobin - 09/16/2011 at 9:03pm |
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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then it will just become a matter of who can push the limits more and get away from it. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of sportsmanship...This is the problem that I spoke about the game becoming harder to actually play. Not technically Like Wturber said anyone can serve to the rules easy but dealing with people who think/say that the serve is bad or tuning or what ever really can be terrible. When there's no umpire or matches are umpired by the a team mate. There's chance for both or one to think a service is bad. Then we spend a few mins talking about it. Then after the match the other player complains that I have cheated him or something like that. This takes the reason I play the game out of it...fun. How do you police something when the umpires who police it aren't around?. |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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Well back to the topic, leaving the free arm is not allowed, the same for low toss serves and the same colur rubber on both sides, in most cases its not a cheating thing but just bad hadits or no effort to make it better and/or no real enforcement, I would say 30% of my serves are not from a flat hand and althogth I have been told before I still just toss it up with a cupped hand only because 99% of my games no one mentions it
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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The rules do not require a flat hand anymore. They simply require an "open palm" on your stationary free hand. You are allowed to cup your hand a bit, just not so much that you could be gripping the ball or that it hides the ball from your opponent. This passage from the ITTF Handbook for Match Officials explains the intent. 10.2 Free Hand 10.2.1 The requirement for the server’s free hand to be open is intended to ensure that the ball is not gripped in any way, so that the player cannot impart spin to the ball as he throws it. In applying the law the umpire should be less concerned with details such as the precise curvature of the server’s free hand than with satisfying himself that the ball is resting freely on its palm. 10.2.2 To help ensure that the ball can be seen resting freely on the palm it is required to be stationary above the level of the playing surface. The free hand may not be held stationary, dropped below the table surface and then brought upwards with a continuous sweep of the arm to throw the ball; if the hand is not brought to rest again above the level of the playing surface the service is illegal. 10.2.3 The ball, but not necessarily the whole of the free hand, must also be behind the server’s end line from the start of service until it is projected upwards. Thus a player may begin service with his arm and part of his free hand over the playing surface without being penalised, provided the ball itself is clearly behind the end line. Edited by wturber - 09/16/2011 at 9:40pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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The balco comment was spot on. pro players break rules because their paycheck depends on it.
boosting, hiding serve. Etc yourself because the pros do it is like an adult league softball player juicing with steroids... |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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+1 for this!
The rules wheren't written for the for those who don't have an umpire. I understand the problem with some of the rules, especially for those who plays with out an umpire, but at the same time, we have to realise that the rules are made for the competitions with an umpire. It's pretty much the same with any sport. Imagine a game of football with out an umpire, several rules would be hard to play by, such as the off side rule. |
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friendship
Super Member Joined: 09/03/2010 Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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what the rules should be is yet different subject. this topic was actually meant to discuss following the current (service) rules as they are. what the rules should be is interesting subject, and it deserves special topic. the fact is i like the current rules favoring ban of hidden serving and applying two color rule, but it's not whether i like it or someone else don't. its about playing by the rules, or not and i see it through fairness. non-pro part of TT comunity does not live from it, they play it for fun, and fairness should be high value. hidden serves are very far from fairness. and i think it really says it all, because anyone understanding it should do his part to remove any advantage he gains by non-fair avoiding of playing by the rules. how someone likes rules or not is not important over the table
Edited by friendship - 09/17/2011 at 3:22pm |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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No one's disputing that. But breaking the hidden serve rule deforms the gameplay in the same way that breaking the Two Color rule would; it requires very little skill on the part of the person breaking the rule, and orders of magnitude greater skill on the part of the receiver to read the spin change.
You are correct that this is a poorly formed analogy. Juanito's spanking of Suss is a perfect example of how well a $7 chinese setup outperforms a $200 setup in the right hands. Player skill is at least 95% of the game. We have already seen that before the hidden serve, from the lowest to highest levels, service was more dominant, leading to more unforced serve return errors and more third ball attacks. In the 21 point era, players would take turns (5 serves) expressing that dominance. Allowing hidden serves in the already close 11 point games is a horrible side-effect of a lack of effective umpiring. |
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