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looping underspin |
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patlu08 
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Joined: 01/23/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 260 |
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 Posted: 03/22/2006 at 7:25pm |
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this guy at my club says it took him 13 years to learn how to loop... hes pretty awsome though
he told me its easier when you are starting to just try and chop and make your opponent fault... but theres always the perfect time when you should loop... |
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Stiga OC CR - no wrb
FH: Globe 999t/Quattro 2.0 BH: Sriver L 1.9 |
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jc48573
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Posted: 03/22/2006 at 7:28pm |
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there is always room to improve ur loops so there is no such thing as a loop that can loop anything just b/c u know wut a loop is. |
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Blade: Yasaka Gatien Extra, Primorac 2000 CS (traditional only)
FH: Globe 999/999T BH: Sriver-D13-L, Sriver EL (RPB) |
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tony7190
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Posted: 03/22/2006 at 7:34pm |
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I can loop ANYTHING! if im really lucky!
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DHS 4007 Penhold Blade
FH: 802-40 BH: G888 |
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wfwfitz
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Posted: 03/22/2006 at 8:36pm |
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I can loop anything but it does not always make sense. Depending on your opponent a well placed push is more effective than a weak opening loop. Being able to loop anything does not mean you can do anything with every type of ball.
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Wfwfitz
Xiom Axelo Xiom Sigma Pro Red and Black Butterfly Amultart Tenergy 05 Black and Red 64 |
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albert230770
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Posted: 03/27/2006 at 5:48pm |
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actually u can loop all serving ball when playing double...of course not all are very power looping or driving looping or smashing. you still need placing to make your opponent running about which is more effective.(as what wfwfitz say b4)
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Cypress - 1989 / Bryce - Sep 2005
KTS + Bryce - Sep 2006 |
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patlu08
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Posted: 03/27/2006 at 6:03pm |
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a tip i learned at the club yesterday was to be as relaxed as you can... like dont be all tensed up when
you are looping because you are morelikely to smash the ball than actuall rub it and put spin on it |
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Stiga OC CR - no wrb
FH: Globe 999t/Quattro 2.0 BH: Sriver L 1.9 |
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lion
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Posted: 03/27/2006 at 7:32pm |
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The arm action of a loop against heavy chop is directly vertically up. This is often acheived by leaning very slightly back, but make sure you are well balanced, with your feet under your centre of mass. This allows the biceps to be used in the upward motion. You need to snap the wrist at contact and use the elbow.
This action will allow you to put the right spin on the ball, but won't necessarily get the ball over the net, because you're not putting any power into the shot. To put power into the shot rotate your body. The easiest way of doing this is twist your feet. By this I mean if you have one foot behind the other, front foot pointing toward the table back foot parallel to the table (which is usual) you end up with the both feet 45 degrees to the table edge. This should give your shot enough power to clear the net, resulting in a whizzing slow moving ball that should be very hard to chop off flats, but you will be just feeding the fire if your opponent has long pips. Taking the ball low doesn't really lessen the spin, however if you find you are putting the ball high over the net it can be a good tactic, because by taking the ball lower you will result in less height. Also the ball is moving more vertically so you can put more spin on the ball, though you will need to twist your body a bit more to add a bit more power. However the usual method for dealling with the ball going high off your bat is to loop drive it, because it means there is less chop. To loop drive against backspin, keep your blade straight vertical, and use the basically the same stroke as against topspin. Depending on the spin you may need to start lower and finish higher. WARNING: good choppers vary the spin, especially if they don't have long pips. One shot of yours will go into the net and the next over the back. Against these players you have to watch them with an eagle eye. |
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Blade: Pimorac
f/h: Mendo MP b/h: Mendo MP normal glue |
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racquetsforsale
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Posted: 02/18/2011 at 10:35pm |
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Reviving an old thread here.
I was practicing my loop against underspin from an old Newgy 200 robot. There is a speed setting but no spin setting. One roller in the head imparts spin on the ball. You get topspin with the head right side up and underspin by twisting it 180 degrees.
I was using an old PPP Senso with Desto F3 on the FH and I felt my swing was nearly vertical, though my followthrough was actually well in front and above my head. The loops had a very flat arc, clearing the net by no more than 6 inches, but had good speed and even better speed when I concentrated on transferring my weight more forward.
When I watch the Chinese pros play against Joo, I notice that their FH swings, though definitely less forward than their regular loops, still have a very large forward component. I say their swing angle is between 45 to 60 degrees.
How are they able to lift the ball with these swing angles and against such extreme underspin? I tried swinging as fast as I could at these angles against the robot and I dumped the ball into the net everytime.
Is the bottom line racket speed: the more racket speed, the more forward the swing can be and the pros simply can generate more racket speed? Or is the concept of lifting underspin a bit more abstract? Someone told me that it's NOT about swinging fast, but GRIPPING the ball.
I thought perhaps my contact was too thin when swinging at those shallow angles, as my shots had plenty of topspin but didn't appear to have enough juice to clear the net, so I experimented. I tried hitting through the ball with a near vertical racket face, but maintaining the shallow swing angles but that didn't work. Then I tried the vertical racket face with a more vertical swing but still hitting through the ball. That worked but not consistently as my shots now had less topspin.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
pnachtwey, I've always enjoy reading your physics breakdown of the sport. Your 2 cents, please.
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simon_xuan
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Posted: 02/18/2011 at 10:48pm |
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I understand the Chinese big swing against heavy under spin has two keys: hit into the sponge and then snap to rip the ball. The position of impact is "3 o'clock", when you are in position with forward movement. Please note most of the H2/3 and TG2/3 Chinese rubbers are tacky or slight tacky, which makes this stroke possible. My coach advise to loop with some speed and hit into the sponge. I know it's difficult to visualize, unless you see the following illustrated pictures on Ma Long's stroke against backspin.
 Edited by simon_xuan - 02/18/2011 at 10:55pm |
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racquetsforsale
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Posted: 02/18/2011 at 11:04pm |
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Simon,
If the impact point on the ball is supposed to be 3 o'clock, then the racket face at contact must be vertical. Swinging low to high this way means you're hitting through the ball with topspin, correct? This is the only way I can visualize how the sponge can be compressed perpendicularly. This sounds exactly like what I was describing earlier. In fact, this sounds like the stroke pattern for counter hitting with a pronounced low to high swing path and a relatively open racket face (still less than vertical of course).
The series of photos is missing important frames of interest, but it seems Ma is on his way to establish his swing angle in photo 4. Now if basing on this photo alone, it looks like his racket face will pretty much be aligned with his swing angle, in other words, he'll swing the racket on edge (racket angle = swing angle). But this cannot be confirmed because he he can very well twist his arm to open the racket face between photos 4 and 7.
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simon_xuan
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Posted: 02/18/2011 at 11:40pm |
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I don't have graph 5,6 either. But my impression is his blade's impact point is still about 45 -60 degree at 2-3 o'clock. The tackiness of the Chinese rubber lifts up the ball. His fast snap controls (shortens) the arc so that the ball can land on the table. At least the text in the Ping Pong World explained this way.
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kenneyy88
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Posted: 02/19/2011 at 12:00am |
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The other images.  |
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racquetsforsale
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Posted: 02/19/2011 at 12:09am |
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Thanks for the supplemental images, kenney. It looks to me he is swinging at an approximately 45 degree angle. The racket face seems to be aligned with this angle as well, and there doesn't appear to be any cues that his forearm supinated to achieve a more opened racket face than 45 degrees.
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racquetsforsale
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Posted: 02/19/2011 at 12:11am |
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Then again, it's a long way between photos 5 and 6, so he might have opened it and then closed it again, though this, in my opinion, destroys the fluidity of the swing and consistency of the stroke.
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racquetsforsale
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Posted: 02/19/2011 at 12:16am |
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Even the caption reads,
"Forearm snap is minimal, relying on the upper arm to swing forward and meet the ball. The racket face is closed and stabilized, contacting the upper half and side of the ball."
Now, I have heard some coaches talk about hitting the ball on the side so as not having to oppose the underspin so directly. This in effect lessens the effect of the underspin.
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simon_xuan
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Posted: 02/19/2011 at 12:20am |
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Yeah, here they go. Thanks Kenneyy88. Still this technique to drive underspin is different or more advanced than my old habit. Normally I would open the blade and lightly brush the ball upward to "lift" it up. But later on I sensed this stroke is more productive if I can follow through fast enough against top spin return thereafter. The anchor point of the body is relatively level horizontally for prompt retun-to-position. This is a desirable body position to be at.
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simon_xuan
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Posted: 02/19/2011 at 12:26am |
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The fast snap is for the forearm (the small arm?) per the text. The blade angel is consistent, with some wrist extension movement.
Edited by simon_xuan - 02/19/2011 at 11:18pm |
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pnachtwey
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Posted: 02/19/2011 at 1:15am |
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The trick to returning back spin balls aggressively is to match or exceed the rotational speed with the tangential speed of the paddle. When the paddle hits the ball there are two components to the impact. One is through the ball or normal to the paddle. The other is tangential to the ball in the plane of the paddle. It is the tangential paddle speed that must match or exceed the surface speed of the ball. If the speeds match exactly there will be no net force tangential to the paddle. This is OK if the paddle is relatively neutral. The Chinese players have great arm speed and can easily match and exceed the surface speed of the ball so there is a net force in the direction that is in the tangential direction of the paddle. This can be up and forward. If the stroke brushes the ball there isn't much of a normal force. If the paddle is closed a bit the normal force will drive the ball forward and down but hopefully the up component of the the tangential force exceed the normal downwards force so the ball will travel horizontally. If I play with my hard bat the paddle is almost always tilted in the neutral position when lifting back spin balls. If I play with H2 Neo I can close t the paddle much farther forward because it will generate more spin with the same speed stroke. If the tangential paddle speed matches the rotational surface speed of the ball there is no net downward force. It doesn't make any difference whether you are using sand paper, a tacky rubber, or T05. Those people that complain that they can't lift backspin with a rubber and expect another rubber to solve to problem are misguided. This is purely a matter of technique. I can lift back spin with anything that I can move fast enough to match the rotational speed of the ball. See Newton's 3rd law about opposite and equal reactions.
Yes, but the ability of the rubber to generate or be affected by spin plays a part if the speeds don't match. The big question is how does one estimate the rotational speed? I look at the choppers stroke. I know my stroke must be as fast as the choppers stroke. If I underestimate the ball will go into the net. If I over estimate then I put extra spin on the ball. The ball may go higher than I would like but the extra spin should drop the ball on the table so I prefer to error on the fast side. |
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racquetsforsale
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Posted: 02/19/2011 at 2:08am |
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Thanks for the detailed analysis, pnachtwey. It makes sense. In light of it, I think I now understand what it means to GRIP the ball as well as why some recommend returning backspin balls on the descent. Catching the ball on its descent increases the tangential component and decreases the normal component of the contact. As for gripping the ball, I think that means contacting the ball in such a way that the sponge is compressed and the topsheet and sponge assembly cups the ball. This seems to jive with what simon was talking about: engaging the sponge.
Cupping leads to more direct/normal contact with the ball, adding to the tangential friction contact component. This concept is identical to that in tennis. At a lower tension, the stringbed cups the ball more and the ball deforms less. The result is more spin and higher throw. Based on this logic, it should be easier to lift backspin with softer rubbers, because it is easier to deform the rubber to cup the ball. Is that right? |
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pnachtwey
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Posted: 02/19/2011 at 3:54am |
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If the speed tangential speed of the paddle matches the surface speed of the ball there is NO NET FORCE no matter what rubber you are using. I am not convinced that softer rubber supply more spin. T05 is medium and will generate MUCH more spin than Reflectoid which is soft. I have both rubbers to know.
Rubbers that generate more spin allow one to attack the ball with a more closed paddle.
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Thaidog
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Posted: 02/19/2011 at 10:55pm |
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The trick for me has always been to focus on my timing... the ball comes slower to you and you have to swing more vertically... this gives you a much shallower window for your timing. It also limits many other things depending on the amount of spin... the heavier the spin the slower your returning loop will be due to having to lift through the ball more... as apposed to hitting through the ball which uses the opponents spin but is much more risky in terms of timing.
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Timo ALC FL
Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
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pnachtwey
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Posted: 02/20/2011 at 2:17am |
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Yes, two things that make hitting chopped balls difficult. 1. The ball floats and drops. 2. The ball slows down a lot after hitting the table and often curves right if the chopper is right handed and curves left if the chopper is left handed. I rarely chop but my LP often causes the ball to float and drop. I have seen brush loopers miss the ball because the ball slowed down a lot more than anticipated.
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hookumsnivy
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Posted: 02/20/2011 at 2:29pm |
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There seems to be 1 extremely important thing not mentioned here: you must use your legs when looping underspin. You bend your knees more than usual and push yourself up with your legs (my coach explains it better than I ever could). This produces more lift so that you can get it over the net. You still need to swing forward or you risk not making it over the net.
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simon_xuan
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Posted: 02/20/2011 at 3:17pm |
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Excellent point. The movement of body anchor from right to left (assuming right-handed) started with leg movement is the key for looping heavy underspin.
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pnachtwey
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Posted: 02/20/2011 at 4:25pm |
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Using the legs is not a MUST from a physics stand point. Only the speed, direction and attitude of the paddle at the moment of impact makes any difference. The result doesn't depend on how this proper speed, direction and attitude is achieved. I am not convinced that using the legs makes a significant difference except when extreme paddle speed is required, whereas I know that if the timing if wrong then you can't brush/hit the ball and if the paddle speed is too low the ball goes into the net. If you need to use the legs, torso, shoulders, elbow and wrist to get the necessary paddle speed then do it. On Greg Lett's site he says that a ball can spin at 150 revolutions per second. I have seen videos of a chopper hitting balls in slow motion where the ball is spinning at 130+ revolutions per second. How fast must the paddle move tangential to the ball? How fast do you think your upwards push is with your legs in comparison? |
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roundrobin
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Posted: 02/20/2011 at 4:31pm |
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Without using your legs to loop, you have minimum chance of proper recovery to ready position for next shot. In other words, your chance to become a good player is close to zero. |
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Ashes
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Posted: 02/20/2011 at 5:51pm |
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Spin is a tricky thing. By training against the robot I noticed that there are many ways in which one can loop underspin. Things that matter: swing angle, bat angle, swing speed, TIMING, RECOVERY, the amount of spin already on the ball.
So how do you adjust? If the ball doesn't rise above net height... start your swing lower, if the ball does rise but doesn't clear the net, add more forward momentum, usually from your hips, if the ball goes too long, start your stroke higher. The bat angle compensates for stroke speed, if you swing slow, open the angle, if you swing fast, close the angle... I can loop at 1 or 2 o clock I take the ball on the rise, 3/4 net height, swinging at 30-40 degrees really fast. When I want to power loop heavy underspin, I use my legs, start with the bat very low, and drive through the ball on the rise like there is no tomorrow. The faster the swing, the more chances it will land, but you must also be prepared for a block :) If I want to be messing with my opponent and set up my kill, I use a more vertical swing, still on the rise, still very fast swing, but very shallow contact. Edited by Ashes - 02/20/2011 at 5:52pm |
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simon_xuan
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Posted: 02/20/2011 at 8:15pm |
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Now we can see it can really getting scientific. :-)
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Thaidog
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Posted: 02/21/2011 at 12:06am |
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I see both points here. From a technical perspective alone you don't hit the ball with your legs and if your in a wheel chair looping chances are it's not a must to use your legs to loop underspin... however the legs do help to set up your shot by creating the proper base and good footwork is what gets you to the ball in the first place.
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Timo ALC FL
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roundrobin
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Posted: 02/21/2011 at 12:28am |
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racquestsforsale wrote: