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Similar to TBS but less power? |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 5:05pm | |
The moment of collision is tiny, which means window for external influence is basically zero. If anything, adding the arm to the collision would only increase already high mass ratios, which already makes no diff at 100:1. If you want to model an external force, be my guest, but note that the addition only increases that massive bat/ball disparity. It would help though to have a decent showing in 100 level classes:
LOL, dropping random truisms might be confusing to n00bs but it's not doing physics. A 3gram ball is not moving the bat with arm attached at all. Maybe you can provide a simple example to demonstrate your case. |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 5:15pm | |
And many members here will remember we have had our moments of "applying the wrong assumptions" on this very forum. Your passage about COR qualifies as one of them.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 5:17pm | |
Science has been demonstrating the non-obvious/intuitive for a while. For example, the same force controlling falling apples as the planets was very controversial at the time. |
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ejmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 08/09/2009 Location: madrid Status: Offline Points: 2609 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 5:33pm | |
I am happy to see AgentHex something valuable coming from you as it is your polite post reply to my non so polite post.
And this produces a good result to you. I really do not want you to feel bad. We may use our big ego sometimes together with something actually valuable. But what it is not good is to have a big ego or protagonism to say nothing or to build whatever theory is good to say something. Besides to build needs time and to destroy is easy. |
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EJ Club.
MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 5:36pm | |
Instead of just mouthing off, please feel free to reply to either davidz's comment there or my own. Again, a simple counterexample would suffice. Surely it would be trivial. BTW, that study you posted yourself pretty much seals the deal. |
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ttping85
Gold Member Joined: 04/09/2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 1061 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 7:04pm | |
So what's the answer? A heavier blade makes absolutely zero difference in terms of power of the difference that it makes is negligeable and unperceivable?
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My list of blades for sale https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wYci9423byd3X43DhSsaXOmysNKMfK-RnPWSo3UfpkQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 7:10pm | |
I think I've given zeio sufficient opportunity to explain what was going in his own link, and thus far he's declined, so: the study shows fairly simple assumptions/model is correct enough as to make no difference to the relevant question here. I can't see what pnachtwey posted, but easy to imagine he just overpressed his technical case.
In sum, the difference between blades of similar design (and really, they're all pretty similar) but varied weight should be quite minute. It may possibly be A-B distinguishable, but well overshadowed by pretty much anything significant. IOW, likely high placebo effect. I also posit that what difference weight can make is a reduction can increase speed on some strokes, which results in faster shot, but again this is minor but at least possibly significant. OTOH, material construction of the blade itself is much more likely to be a factor, but this only has some correlation to weight, esp in multi-ply product. The concentration on this factor is akin to the drunk looking for keys under the lamppost because that's the only place he has illumination. |
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ZApenholder
Premier Member Joined: 03/04/2012 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 4806 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 7:34pm | |
Didn't read much of page 2, but from page 1, I think all this is hijacking threads again by some individual/s. I hope not all equipement query threads ends up with related but distantly related issues. It feels like spamming in a way. To answer your question, heavier blade does make a different and increase power for a player that has train with it. I have worked with both kinds of players (one prefer light, other prefer heavy) It can clearly be seen by active blocking, especially from BH side that the heavier blade has firmer (not sure if this is right word) block and more power. I'm pretty certain if I give the same player a lighter blade, the power will be reduced. Another thing you can notice is from off the table play, where lighter blade again has less power compared to heavier blade. Now back to me, if I can recall a 100g+ Cpen blade I hardly used about 15 years ago.... I keep blocking balls off with my traditional Cpen block on a H3. But then again, I haven't spend enough time with it to adjust properly |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 7:45pm | |
Sometimes people conflate and confuse different factors. On different blades heavier often implies thicker or rigid layers. Of course these block better for reasons already mentioned. Maybe away from the table they conflate more speed/spin ratio (ie drive v loop) for "power", again perhaps attributable to more flexible/dwell blade. But the basic physics is reasonably clear.
Rigidity (inferring less plasticity) is correlated to wood weight but it's incidental to the specific question of whether more weight equates to more "power". Ie, adding tape weight can be very different to blade weight from harder wood. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 7:54pm | |
This really shouldn't even be that controversial. Anyone familiar with 1ply blades (less variables) knows that often you want a thicker (ie faster) yet lighter (ie quicker) blade. These are ones dried the most time and considered desirable by many.
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 7:58pm | |
My apologies for the long wait. Was caught up by other things in the middle of writing this up. Add to that the time to prepare the subtantiation necessary to make my case.
The bone of contention comes before the collision. How the paddle has gained that momentum does not depend on the conservation of that momentum during a collision. The crux of most counterarguments assumes that one can only swing a heavier paddle slower. But is that how it really happens under real-world situations? JTTA has done a study on the effect of paddle mass on the forehand drive stroke of eight male collegiate players. Three Schlager Carbons with Sriver in max on the forehand and a rubber of different sizes and thickness on the backhand were used for the experiment, each weighing 157.5g, 171.5g and 185g, respectively. The results show that upon impact the tip of the three paddles each clocks in at 20.5±1.5m/s, 20.1±1.1m/s, 20.1±1.6m/s. So what next? |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/08/2013 at 8:13pm | |
The crux of most counterarguments assumes that one can only swing a heavier paddle slower.
There's two arguments here. One is that heavier per se doesn't seem to do jack during collision which is reasonably established, the other is that on-coming speed does matter so opens the question of whether the lighter blade is actually faster as result of less mass to accelerate. The second question is much tougher because it's not just simplish physics but complicated biomechanics and far more situational, not to mention different mechanics for different strokes. For example, for a weaker player whose limitation is arm strength (energy exertion limited), a light bat will more likely be faster on kills. For a well-conditioned person, this is less likely to be so for most shots. Overall it might be very slightly diff for high level play but for most folks it's IMO matter of preference. Personal confidence (even if placebo) can vary drastically, but these physical diffs are maybe few percent in aggregate. |
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ejmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 08/09/2009 Location: madrid Status: Offline Points: 2609 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 12:12am | |
Few times the player use his full arm strength. Because the ball will go out from the table by far.
So given the same speed (i think zeio data shows this in a given weight range) more mass gives more power. Then AgentHex you are wrong. But in anycase there is something called 'feeling' to know it. |
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EJ Club.
MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood. |
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bluebucket
Platinum Member Joined: 02/20/2011 Location: 16 Status: Offline Points: 2882 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 1:02am | |
Using a SC for that test proves the guys doing the rest know nothing about table tennis. Weight doesn't effect stiff blades. They will be fast no matter the weight |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 1:13am | |
Yes, if you'd be satisfied with a pitifully tiny novelty bat within maybe order of magnitude of 3grams.
How stiff a blade is has nothing to do how fast it swings. |
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ejmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 08/09/2009 Location: madrid Status: Offline Points: 2609 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 1:22am | |
Power= F (force) x S (speed).
The player when executing strokes tend to put a given speed to have control about the stroke. So with more mass same blade type there will be more power. Another thing is to compensate with speed the different mass what the player may apply. The problem here it is that in anycase the control feeling can change because different speed does not provide same control (it can be more or less) than different weight executing the stroke. That is why the blade weight matters given same blade. And 'the feeling' tell us about this when playing. As the kc sunshine song shake 'don't fight the feeling'. Btwy 3-5 grs. may change the blade noticeable. In fact it does. Eg. A thicker blade does not have same flex resistance as a thin blade. |
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EJ Club.
MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 1:38am | |
The issue presented early on is that there's a physical limit to how fast a relatively light ball can leave a collision with a much heavier object (ie bat) of fixed speed. This is something taught in Physics 100. Feel free to play with an online calculator of this: http://mysite.verizon.net/res148h4j/javascript/script_collision1d.html
Trying to invent new physics is unlikely to work here. Just to be clear, the current status of the debate there is whether it's close enough to zero that it can't possibly be discerned, not if the diff can possibly be significant. |
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ejmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 08/09/2009 Location: madrid Status: Offline Points: 2609 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 1:48am | |
We are talking about power not about speed.
And about the blade weight that matters about the playing behaviour. Do not invent new issues AgentHex. There it is enough stone trying to fight the evident feeling. |
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EJ Club.
MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood. |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1026 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 1:55am | |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 1:58am | |
Since this seems to be a confusing topic, let's use an example to illustrate the conclusions:
Let's say our base blade is the Stiga All Classic @ 80g. To contrast, let there be a version with middle layers made out of concrete instead of ayous @ 500g. Now obviously the latter will be faster, but the critical nuance is that it's faster because of the different elasticity of the material used, not because it's heavier. IOW, if you're somehow able to construct the cement blade @80g, it would be about as fast as the 500g one. In fact, an even lighter cement blade within reason would still be faster than the 80g ALL. How this translates to the real world is it's entirely possible that a heavier blade results from wood with denser/harder grain or whatever (this is sometimes true, but not always) which is more elastic though less so than cement. Wood after all is not of precisely manufactured origins. But then an OC (regardless of weight) is also faster than the ALL the for the same type of reason: because it's made of different stuff, not because it weights more. Get it? |
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ejmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 08/09/2009 Location: madrid Status: Offline Points: 2609 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 2:07am | |
Same (again 'same'. Eg 2 stiga all) blade type, more weight = more power.
The feeling. No one is saying more weight in different blades = more speed. I said in my post above 'given the same blade'. Got it? |
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EJ Club.
MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 2:15am | |
Ah, so you're one of those who insist on the flatness of the earth in face of any amount of science or data. Here I was thinking even (or esp) an EJ should be able to figure out that it's entirely possible for one ALL to have slightly harder yet slightly lighter layers than another or vice versa, but I was wrong. I mean, all these EJs are such idiots to get a "heavy viscaria" when all they had to do was get the lightest one and add weights to customize to their preference. |
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Imago
Premier Member Joined: 07/19/2009 Location: Sofia Status: Offline Points: 5897 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 2:48am | |
In TT, balance is more important than weight as far as speed and power are concerned. So if you want a less powerful TBS, just pick one that is less head heavy.
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ejmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 08/09/2009 Location: madrid Status: Offline Points: 2609 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 2:51am | |
Fighting hard AgentHex. As desperate.
Same means same blade layering also. But now i am worried about the earth not being flat. AgentHex please trust me. Do not fight the feeling. Do not use shoes with curved sole to walk because the earth you know is round. |
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EJ Club.
MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 3:03am | |
How so? The head has to be traveling faster for it to matter, and a heavier head is generally always harder to accelerate. To demonstrate this for angular momentum (ie "balance"), imagine a see-saw with equal weights at equal distance. Now move one of the weights inward ("lighter" balance on that side), and you'll find it's much easier for the heavy side to move the light side quickly than vice versa. |
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Thomasson
Gold Member Joined: 03/30/2010 Location: Netherlands Status: Online Points: 1012 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 3:06am | |
Id say try my ALC :D |
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Blade: Viscaria
FH: Dignics 05 2.1 BH: ABS 2 pro |
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Imago
Premier Member Joined: 07/19/2009 Location: Sofia Status: Offline Points: 5897 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 3:27am | |
More mass will produce more power, so the answer is less head heavy. And this is what the OP wants - less power.
If you are going to nail something what would you use - a balanced iron profile or a head-heavy hammer?
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 3:33am | |
It's very hard to imagine that an EJ would be ignorant of the fact the same general wood often varies significantly according to each tree's specific genetics based on location, yearly growth, water content, and even height within the tree. A blade model only means a certain design, and the actual cuts varies as trees vary, which is what accounts for the weight differences in addition to hardness (ie elasticity/"speed"), etc. When picky EJ's desire a heavier/"faster" blade, what they're really hoping for is that weight comes as result of density (which implies hardness) in the right layer or even side, and not, say, water content.
When you can't even understand the basic momentum principles above much less how they're applied, this assured faith in your own competence exemplifies the Dunning Kruger effect. |
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ejmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 08/09/2009 Location: madrid Status: Offline Points: 2609 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 3:41am | |
AgentHex i do not think the dealer is going to pay attention to you but asking about the weight when ordering a blade.
The same i told you to not use shoes with curved sole to walk because the earth you know is round believe me, ask for a more weight blade if wanting a more powerful sample. Do not go with theories. Maybe he is going to tell you gtf another place. We do not want this happens. Btwy. I hope imago you understand AgentHex post reply. Read carefully imago. |
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EJ Club.
MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Posted: 08/09/2013 at 3:44am | |
Please read the thread above and use the calculator linked if need be. This doesn't work like how people who apparently slept through physics think it does.
A "head heavy" hammer is just a side-effect of the long handle used to maximize length of the swing, the same reason why full arm loops are "more powerful" than gimpy ones: longer range for acceleration. I doubt by a head heavy blade you mean something that looks like a badminton racket, though this would be quite effective if you can hit the ball with it. |
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