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Spinmax homemade replacement |
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minicd
Super Member Joined: 06/26/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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Spinmax allows you to hit the ball harder if you can get the technique as you can close the blade more on loops and drives and the ball travels more in the direction of the arm movement. The increased spin means that the ball will dip much more violently and shots which would otherwise miss will still hit the table.
It does reduce speed on any shots hit with a flat blade though.
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minicd
Super Member Joined: 06/26/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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ILL TAKE THE THE EECOLO
IF U STILL HAVE IT
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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I have tried a product called 'Sticky Stuff Remover', made by a company called 'Mykal' and it had 2 interesting properties.
1. It cleans the rubber in a similar way to Spinmax.
2. It produces an impressive dome when you apply it to the sponge or previously glued rubbers (probably more on the glued ones). I would say it speeded the rubber up a little but it did improve the spin quite a lot. Like EE, the rubbers are quite difficult to attach afterwards and normal glue is best for this. Unlike EE though the whole process took less than 12 hours and the rubbers can be attached the next day (with a little difficulty). I have just peeled a rubber (God Favored SP) off a blade which I glued on over a month ago and this rubber still has an impressive dome.
People wishing to try this should beware though that I have only tried this on old rubbers so far and only played with this rubber intermittently during this period to see how it was going. People should also be aware that GF SP seems to have the longest glue effect of any rubber I have ever used (up to 24 hours) so this may also be part of the reason the dome is still there.
If anyone out there has some old rubbers and some of this product kicking around, maybe they could experiment and post their results.
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wfwfitz
Gold Member Joined: 04/02/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1475 |
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Never heard of sticky stuff remover. When you say it cleans similar to Spinmax do you mean it makes the rubber sticky or gets it clean and shinny.
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Wfwfitz
Xiom Axelo Xiom Sigma Pro Red and Black Butterfly Amultart Tenergy 05 Black and Red 64 |
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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It makes the rubber sticky. In the UK it is available from a catalogue company. You can search it on google.
It contains orange oil which I think may be the active ingredient. It also slightly expands the surface and softens the rubber a little.
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Skippy
Super Member Joined: 02/22/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 282 |
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Are we absolutely 100% sure we're starting with Heptane? Not that this is much better but Techspray Rubber Rejuvenator which is very good rubber cleaner and restorer is 65%-75% dl limonene
<30% Chlorinated Paraffin Now I dont know how close of a chemical compound this is to Heptane, but I know this stuff cleans rubber very nicely, and keeps the elasticity of the rubber pretty much the same throughout the life of the rubber. |
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Xiom Zetro Quad
FH: Andro Hexer Max BH: Xiom Euro Vega Max |
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NickoRulez
Super Member Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Points: 437 |
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Spinmax is probably a solution of trichlorethylene ( the active component ) in n-heptane , the linear and cheapest isomer of heptane (the diluent ). Try 5%-10%-15% of trichl. under safe condictions.
Spinmax is NOT a tt rubber cleaner. Spinmax acts by dissolving few microns of the top sheet surface, leaving a very thin layer of polyisoprene – polybutadiene emulsion that stays for a while. This emulsion increases the static spin of top sheet , leaving unchanged its dinamic spin , a value related mainly to the Young’s modulus ( tensile or elastic modulus) of the rubber. The Young’s modulus is increased by solvents of glue, so Spinmax, properly used, is NOT a tensor for rubbers. I suggest to try trichl. because it is the best solvent of rubbers. Actually , the Hildebrand Solubility Parameter of trichl. , and its three ortogonal components , the Hensen parameters, have values near to HS Parameters of elastomeric matrix in the top sheet. (Solubility parameters are simply excellent indicators of the compatibility of a particular solvent with a particular substance .) In our case the particular substance is generally a blend of polyisoprene ( natural or synt) and polybutadiene (100 -0 % , 70 -30 % or 50 -50%) fibers enbedded in a filler of calcium carbonate ( Silicon? Were is it ? ) . The filler and the elastomer(s) don’t joint freely , but they are bonded by an anphoteric coupling factor , generally a silane. These are the main compounds of a tt top sheet , technically a composite : its average Hildebrand Parameter is near to 19.5 and the Hild. Par. of trichloroethylene is 18.7-19.0 . The Parameter of heptane is 15.3 , so it isn’t as good solvent as trichl. for the top sheet and it can’t be the active component of spinmax . The problem of Solubility Parametrs of rubber solvents is much more intricate and I thankfully stop here. More interesting are the long-term effects of spinmax , ie after 20 applications or so. The top sheet loses gradually the grip and becomes dead : my Mendo MP ,whose tops are designed with spin-elastic technology, became antitop . Funny and fast , speed glued antitop rubbers !!!! Why ? For a simple reason: Heptane does form an azeotropic mixture with any of the main rubber solvents. Let me do an ex. : cyclohexane and ethyl acetate are a well known azeotropic binary used in speed glues Their vapor pressure at standard Temp. is 11.17 Kilopascal and 10.87 KPa respectively, so cyclx. would evaporate more fast than ethylact. from the mixture, changing the relative molar volumes either in the liquid phase or in the gas phase of the blend. Azeotropism of this mix prevents it happens , and the speed glue effect of this binary ( really not so good effect ) stays constant throughout. In spinmax , heptane , ( 7 KPa ) , would evaporates more slowly than our supposed trichlorethylene component ( 9 Kpa : the difference seems small , but it is great ) and ,after 1-2 seconds , we would brush our rubber surface with pure solvent with no effect . Being spinmax an azeotropic blend , it deosn’t happen and the two (?) organics evaporate “together “. The inventor of Spinmax is a good chemist who wants his VOC blend stays constant till the last drop . But he seems, ( only seems !!!!!), to be unaware of the fact that heptane , and other VOCs , are strong solvents of rubber tackyfiers and plasticizers, two classes of minor compounds of tt top sheets from which the coefficient of friction and the static grip of rubber depends ( static spin ). Even isopropylic alcool , the mildest cleaner of tops , after water , does it , and so the mildest non ionic detergent !! So we can add spinmax to our list of short and long term aging agents of rubbers as oxygen , ozone , fatty acids , glues, mech. stress , home made mixtures……….. There is in the forum a true tt rubber engineer who explain us something about the 10000 chemicals used by NR industry ? Are you guy ? Abracos. PS: the next time do an abstract , nicko ! |
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Ricardote
Member Joined: 01/17/2007 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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Nicko:
wow!!!
Are you saying rhat spinmax will make the rubbers less sticky in the long term?
or are you saying that a homemade spinmax with tricholoetc and heptane will make a rubber less sticky long term?
thanks...
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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I think what he is actually saying is 'look at me, look how clever I am, look what I know', it doesn't smell like it has 'trichlorethylene' (I assume he means trichloroethylene) in it. If it did, it would already be banned. The best way to find out the effect it has on rubbers is to ask someone who actually plays with it, rather than listen to some half baked scientific blurb which begins by telling you what it probably might contain and then goes into great detail as to how it works if this if this is what it contains.
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wfwfitz
Gold Member Joined: 04/02/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1475 |
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In a nutshell I am told that Spinmax works by disolving a very thin layer of the topsheet thereby revealing a new topsheet. Why this new topsheet does not stay new for long I dont know, but once you start using spinmax you have to continue for the life of the rubber.
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Wfwfitz
Xiom Axelo Xiom Sigma Pro Red and Black Butterfly Amultart Tenergy 05 Black and Red 64 |
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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Spinmax certainly softens the topsheet as well.
When you stop using spinmax, the surface dries out, initially beginning to look dull and lifeless and then small cracks appear. I often give my old rubbers to juniors who I coach, after a couple of months they need new sheets as the surface is cracking.
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NickoRulez
Super Member Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Points: 437 |
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Hi Ricardote,
I say that absolute heptane and any blend of heptane + x solvent , reduce the coefficient of friction of table tennis top sheets in short time . This reduction starts since the first treatment , and it becomes significant after few treatments according to the type of tops , thacky , thacky-elastic , spin-elastic , offensive-elastic tops. Spinmax is like an anfetamine : first it stimulates , then it brings down . If you ask a chemist of polymer science how to clean any natural rubber surface , he will reply hexane for sure ! Cheap, fast , a bit toxic and flammable . But my rubber surface is delicate : isopropylic alcool or a solution of isopropylic alcool and water ( 60-40 % v/v ) ; More delicate : a non ionic detergent ; A table tennis rubber : deionized water , even if the filler is hygroscopic. This is my direct experience with spinmax , with my glues and with my tt cleaners . I don’t arouse you haven’t to make your own experiments : you are welcome in our group of “ little organic alchemistry “. Simply I say you have not to put your finger in boiling water to know EXPERIMENTALLY what happens : damn! I have made it before you ! Even The King Carlos reads the label on trichlorOethylene bottle before to drink it. |
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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From personal experience of spinmax, I find the opposite, over the last 2 years of using the stuff. My rubbers are consistently more spinny throughout their lifetime when using spinmax and I would say that the spin builds up. If we are saying the surface deteriorates, then maybe it is down to the softening of the rubber which creates the extra spin. In any case, I would much rather play with a month old rubber that I have repeatedly used spinmax on than a new sheet.
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wfwfitz
Gold Member Joined: 04/02/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1475 |
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Juan when do you start using spinmax on your rubbers?
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Wfwfitz
Xiom Axelo Xiom Sigma Pro Red and Black Butterfly Amultart Tenergy 05 Black and Red 64 |
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NickoRulez
Super Member Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Points: 437 |
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I agree spinmax increase the static spin of tops when in use ; it is a fact . But when you stop , the sheet comes out dead for the reasons I tried to expl.
Its formula was never disclosed by its Australian inventor, of course , but for sure it was never submitted to ITTF approval and never banned as a consequence . And how could ITTF approve a stuff that changes the mechanical specifications of rubber surface ? So I can only say probably, probably……, but on my experience in the field of elastemers . Who know published researches on generic chemical composition of tt rubbers, he steps forwards ! I know only one short report of 1999, and I referenced it. For sure spinmax produces spin in a different way from the mechanism proposed by wfwfitz in a nutshell. Tests on accelerated aging of condoms ( aimed to set their expiration date , a bit more crucial thing than expir. date of our rubbers ) , can be used as a good theorical model for aging of any thin rubber sheet . I would never suspected our top sheets were a sort of thick condom vulcanized on a sponge ( sic! ), but it is so from a chemical point of view . Please, don’t try it with fresh glued sponge . Well, as soon as packing was not sufficently airtight anymore , the thin walled rubber of a condom was aged witheen weeks. Moreover , condoms , that are filled of antioxidants as tt-tops are, aren’t exposed to light . Therefore , wfwfitz , the new topsheet surface revealed by spinmax is as oxidized as the old one and , as the former , not spinny . It is well proved that colored rubber stuff surfaces ( no carbon black filled ) are ageing for a depth equal to about 0.3 mm witheen one - two monthes ; from that time on , the aging goes slow ( years ) . The mechanism of action for spinmax I proposed is really a softening of the outer surface of top sheet as…………….. Please, feed coins into the machine. |
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forehandloop
Super Member Joined: 03/12/2007 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 423 |
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science genius
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MALIN=Making A Loop Irritate Noobs
TIMOBOLL=Tt Includes More Of Body Odour, Lob Lowly SAMSONOV=Slicing A Massive Spin Over Non-Oxygen Vessels MALONG=My Attack Leads Our National Encyclopedia |
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NickoRulez
Super Member Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Points: 437 |
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As you know,specific job of the genius is to provide ideas to idiots twenty years later .
You prefer : The genius lives in the madness ,in the sense that he keeps himself afloat where the fool drowns. Do you really think I'm teasing someone aside from me ? But for you I will stretch the rules. |
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forehandloop
Super Member Joined: 03/12/2007 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 423 |
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I'm sorry I am really slow
I know you are a science pro Forgive my dumbness in chemistry There are other idiots just like me |
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MALIN=Making A Loop Irritate Noobs
TIMOBOLL=Tt Includes More Of Body Odour, Lob Lowly SAMSONOV=Slicing A Massive Spin Over Non-Oxygen Vessels MALONG=My Attack Leads Our National Encyclopedia |
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Ricardote
Member Joined: 01/17/2007 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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Nicko: don�t pay attention to forehand. He said in another post that he�s a 13 y.o. spamming to "became a silver user" (what for????) Let me ask you. When you describe your experience with spinmax, are you talking about the red or the blue? Because I speedglue, and I use blue (not allways, only in matches) and I NEVER had residues of rubber in the cloth I use. Not even the slightest decoloration. Maybe the red is different to the blue? By the way, the blue evaporates in 3 seconds.
For your info, I use LKT XT and Geospin.
thanks for your help. And I kindda think it probably doesn�t have trichloro, as Joola wouldn�t use (IMO) unapproved solvents (or would they)?
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JRSDallas
Silver Member Joined: 09/03/2005 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 585 |
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Nicko:
Your saying SpinMax actually ages the TT rubber rather quickly. My experience agrees. The playing feel and spin from new rubber sheet treated with SpinMax is worse than a new untreated sheet. Also, additional SpinMax treatments don't make it better. To me, SpinMax should be used to make old oxidized rubber sheets useful again for multi-ball practice or other non-essential play situations. Your also saying that deionized water is the only thing that should be used to clean TT rubber (in the absence of grease and oil). Quite often, competitive players breath on their sheets and rub their hands across the rubber (I do as well once the sheet gets a little older). Does the oil from your hands impart fatty acids or other aging agents? Is there a surface treatment that helps the TT rubber resist oxidation and preserve its tackyness and elasticity? Thanks in advance. |
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fatcomet
Silver Member Joined: 04/30/2006 Location: Korea, North Status: Offline Points: 798 |
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wow! this is certainly important info from nickorulez.
I wonder if Ksix could do a H NMR, 13C NMR, GC, IR etc on spinmax were we (aka not me) to send a sample to his/her lab. The presence of a chlorinated alkene would be immediately detectable, though for a mixture like spinmax some separation of components would be likely needed to know the precise makeup. I think running any specs wouldn't violate copyrights/patent and it would tell whether non-kosher stuff was being used. |
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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I apply spinmax when I begin to apply glue to the rubber, usually 2-3 days before I first use it. Some I get ready a week or so in advance of playing with it. I hardly need to change rubbers anymore though, as the rubbers keep getting better with age as long as you keep applying the spinmax.
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forehandloop
Super Member Joined: 03/12/2007 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 423 |
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isnt spinmax going to get banned along with the speed glue? and wouldn't using a homemade replacement get you into the same trouble?
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MALIN=Making A Loop Irritate Noobs
TIMOBOLL=Tt Includes More Of Body Odour, Lob Lowly SAMSONOV=Slicing A Massive Spin Over Non-Oxygen Vessels MALONG=My Attack Leads Our National Encyclopedia |
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wfwfitz
Gold Member Joined: 04/02/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1475 |
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So you apply spinmax to new rubbers before you use them and before every playing session. How long does a tin last? Why apply it to new rubbers.
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Wfwfitz
Xiom Axelo Xiom Sigma Pro Red and Black Butterfly Amultart Tenergy 05 Black and Red 64 |
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forehandloop
Super Member Joined: 03/12/2007 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 423 |
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depends on how big your tin is
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MALIN=Making A Loop Irritate Noobs
TIMOBOLL=Tt Includes More Of Body Odour, Lob Lowly SAMSONOV=Slicing A Massive Spin Over Non-Oxygen Vessels MALONG=My Attack Leads Our National Encyclopedia |
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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I get a couple of months from a tin of spinmax. It gives even new rubbers more grip and helps to soften them making them more playable.
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pongcrazy
Gold Member Joined: 07/07/2007 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1055 |
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This is at least a partial list of ingredients for Spinmax straight from Joola: This probably only includes the Solvents used and not "all" the ingredients!
pongcrazy
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