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Timo Boll ALC vs Viscaria

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Timo Boll ALC vs Viscaria
    Posted: 03/12/2019 at 10:10pm
Viscaria doesn't have Balsa core or else it would weigh 70g. Balsa is nearly half the weight of Kiri(Paulownia) . You cant have Kiri core blade and a balsa core blade of the same thickness weigh the same(Unless serverly different weight handles). Kiri is known as Japanese balsa and that's where the translation issue came from.  The difference between TB ALC and Viscaria is in the wings and handle. It's the same difference between all the Koto / ALC blades.  You want the softest feeling ALC get Kenta. You want the fastest get TB ALC. Realize depending  on Epoxy cure and weight that they will over lap. I know this is an old post but let's get the facts straight

Edited by jpenmaster - 03/12/2019 at 10:18pm
Kenta ALC T05H/T05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cede1975 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 9:40pm
Viscaria is the same compo as TB ALC, kiri core, but different balance due to blade shape and handle design. generally viscaria is tip heavy more harder than TB ALC. These are all general facts.

balsa core is viscaria light, the durability of balsa core blade is just shyte. keep in mind just by smashing alone repetitively by an adult can damage the core within weeks. No one in right mind would want a balsa core blade especially when balls get heavier. That is why viscaria light is obselete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2013 at 6:43pm
Yeah, Butterfly must be such idiots to put anything but balsa in their core.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mickael Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2013 at 5:33pm
There is no wrong information, viscaria has a balsa core, no wonder among all the alc blades it is the only one that has a soft feel. There is no miracles it is the balsa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2013 at 10:38am
For sure, it is not that hard to adjust from one to the other, they are enough alike, but I certainly have a preference for one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2013 at 8:22am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I still wonder, though, if the difference is in the inner core, or if it is something they do to the top ply of their newer models, or even something different in the gluing process?  I don't know much about wood, but I always wondered why Btfly would give incorrect information about the composition of their blades, and that favors your conclusion.  But people who seem to know a lot about wood always seemed convinced it couldn't be balsa in the core of a Viscaria.  I have never felt competent to give an opinion on that, other than to say that it seems somewhat less pliable than other balsas I have seen in blades.     

I think the difference has more to do with the top ply, and handle shape.  If I have been with the Viscaria for a while, and switch over to TBALC, I can see that the TB is harder, yet a bit dull (lack of feeling). OTH if I have been playing with the TBALC for a while, and switch back to Viscaria, I feel the Viscaria is rough, and it take a bit longer to adjust.  Over all I like the TBALC better, because I like ST handle more, and play with it more than the Viscaria.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2013 at 11:35pm
I still wonder, though, if the difference is in the inner core, or if it is something they do to the top ply of their newer models, or even something different in the gluing process?  I don't know much about wood, but I always wondered why Btfly would give incorrect information about the composition of their blades, and that favors your conclusion.  But people who seem to know a lot about wood always seemed convinced it couldn't be balsa in the core of a Viscaria.  I have never felt competent to give an opinion on that, other than to say that it seems somewhat less pliable than other balsas I have seen in blades.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2013 at 10:01pm
Having compared my Viscaria with the TB-ALC for 2 sessions (using the same rubbers on each blade), I now feel that the inner core in Viscaria is truly different than the one in TB-ALC as the BTY marketing spiel suggests: Balsa vs Kiri.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2013 at 7:12pm
slevin, That same surface sealing that you see on TB-ALC is also present on the ZJK blades but not on the TBS.  I personally don't like it much, it changes the way the blade feels a bit and generally I don't like it.  I have been playing with Viscaria since about 2007.  It also annoys me that it is hard to find now!  If only ZJK was not so good! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2013 at 5:52pm
My take on these 2 similar blades:

I recently acquired a 87g FL Viscaria from a BTY dealer. I own a 87g ST TB-ALC. Both are 91g after Tournagrip.

I put same rubbers on both (T05 FH, T80 BH, all max) to check out how the two blades (that I own; others may see different views) differ.

The most significant differences are:
  1. My Viscaria has a fair bit of flex in it. This helps me in my backhand sidespin flick service returns (useful trait) & adds some spin to my opening loops & serves (not so useful trait). My TB-ALC is fairly stiff and hence has better control (in pushes and general timing of rushed shots). In this respect, they don't play like similar blades at all (though the general speed & the ALC behaviour feel the same). This flex is less than in a Innerforce ZLC and certainly a lot less than in the TB-ZLF & IF-ZLF blades. I can see how this flex makes my Vis a much better blade for Chinese rubbers.
  2. My Viscaria has more 'good vibrations' than my TB-ALC (which hardly has any).
  3. The rubbers stick to the surface of my Viscaria much easier than they do to my TB-ALC (or the rest of the TB series that I've owned in the past). It seems to have come with less sealant on it than my TB-ALC. To me, this is a positive trait.
As of now, I'm leaning towards my Vis over the TB-ALC.

However, I'm flabbergasted how in-demand this blade is in US & China. I'm assuming this is not the case in Europe. Pretty sure that a reasonable chunk of that is just due to the CNT players using it. Now, Eugene Wang (here in NA) also seems to have moved to this blade from the IF-ZLC as do many Chinese imports. Hopefully ZJK moves onto some other blade thus bringing down the demand on this one to a more reasonable level.


Edited by slevin - 09/11/2013 at 5:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 4:12pm
Pondus, do you also agree that the surface of the TB-ALC is a lot shinier and harder than for Viscaria, as if they have treated it with something?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pondus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 3:46pm
Viscaria has a Kiri core - always has had that. 
The composition is: Koto (Outer) - Arylate Carbon - Limba - Kiri (Core) - Limba - Arylate Carbon - Koto (Outer)

Timo Boll ALC has the same composition of plies as Viscaria (and a slew of other blades, for that matter), but not the same construction (ie dimensions & thickness of plies).



Edited by Pondus - 04/30/2013 at 3:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 3:11pm
I can not say why, but I have more confidence, and have more success rate with TB ALC when counter loop away from the table than with Viscaria.  It could be that the TB ALC is more balance in my hand IDK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silva7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 2:14pm
for the record!!! Viscaria does not have a Balsa Core. it was misdescribed by BTY USA website
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 2:06pm
Just out of curiosity, how can you tell the difference in the core?  I am not good at telling one kind of wood from another.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongcrazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by vvu.tee vvu.tee wrote:

yes, the blades are very similar in almost all respects, and Baal got the bulls' eye that variation within the model are as large as variation between models. I also think the old Viscarias used to have different core and have softer feel than new ones, and I confirm that the only material difference between the Tb ALC aand the Viscaria is the weight distribution (having owned 4 Viscarias and 5-6 ALCs and TBSs IMO Viscarias is a more head-heavy blade than the ALC) and this is a significant difference for high-speed and power play.
 
I think you are right... My old version of the Viscaria, which I play with regularly, has a Kiri core while I believe the new version has a Balsa core.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 12:11pm
Part of the difference lies in something Btfly is doing to the top ply of the TB-ALC, something similar to what Stiga does on the CR blades.  Viscarias are not like that.

The original speed ratings always depended on which example of either blade you tested, and there has been some change over time.  The Viscarias sold in the last 18 months have been consistently faster than ones bought before that  (I have been playing with Viscaria blades since about 2006).  Recent TB-ALC blades have tended to be lighter, a lot of them in the 85 g range, down from when they first came out and averaged closer to 90.  Viscarias are still around 90 most of the time.  That means they will feel more stable from mid distance and beyond and in that sense will feel faster even if they are a bit less bouncy.  The differences in how they feel when you play are not huge, but they are greater than when the TB-ALC first came out.


Edited by Baal - 04/30/2013 at 12:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jobaumi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 11:39am
[QUOTE=kurokami] it's not slower. after trying several ALC and viscaria, viscaria is definitely faster. the original butterfly ratings had the viscaria speed rated higher. no idea why it's positioned lower on the matrix. however, only bty NA has that...and NA either doesn't care or messes up info a lot

if you ever played with the original iolite, that was rated 9.6 speed on the numerical system. the TBS being 8.4, viscaria was rated 8.9

*edit: so someone mentioned it seems slower up close. i thought about it. yes, viscaria is softer and for light shots, the speed doesn't kick in. in this sense, it feels slower than ALC, which will have a more solid touch when bouncing the ball off the racket. when making strong attacks however, viscaria will be noticeably faster. 



Full agree. It has a better touch in the short game. But its faster with a full swing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 6:51am
it's not slower. after trying several ALC and viscaria, viscaria is definitely faster. the original butterfly ratings had the viscaria speed rated higher. no idea why it's positioned lower on the matrix. however, only bty NA has that...and NA either doesn't care or messes up info a lot

if you ever played with the original iolite, that was rated 9.6 speed on the numerical system. the TBS being 8.4, viscaria was rated 8.9

*edit: so someone mentioned it seems slower up close. i thought about it. yes, viscaria is softer and for light shots, the speed doesn't kick in. in this sense, it feels slower than ALC, which will have a more solid touch when bouncing the ball off the racket. when making strong attacks however, viscaria will be noticeably faster. 





Edited by kurokami - 04/30/2013 at 7:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

How to compare if they - bty.tt - have no desire to ship ZJK outside BRD, Austria and Luxemburg.
I saw something from ButterflyOnline that said the ZJK would be coming to North America soon.  And since N.A. is usually last on Bty's list of priorities, I think it's safe to assume that this paddle will soon be available everywhere. Of course, "soon" could mean another year.
 
In the meanwhile, I was hoping for comments from people who'd bought one in Japan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 2:08am
How to compare if they - bty.tt - have no desire to ship ZJK outside BRD, Austria and Luxemburg.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 2:05am
I was under the impression that Viscaria was due to be replaced by the Zhang Ji Ke blade.  If so, then I guess what would be more relevant is a comparison between ZJK and TB ALC blades.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 1:58am
For a pro, this is a matter of dynamic accommodation.
 
BTW, 10 days ago, I ordered a Viscaria from Presports - and still processing. These guys do not seem to have the blade in stock.


Edited by Imago - 10/24/2011 at 2:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 1:48am
Actually, I did try it once, but not on purpose.  Like a fool, I packed my two Viscarias in my checked luggage on the way to a tournament.  The luggage was lost for awhile.  Didn't make it to my hotel until late in the afternoon on the next day.  However, I had matches early that morning and had to play with a friend's blade (a Maze).  Slower.  Not even a lot slower, but not what I was used to.  Not good.  Definitely not good.  I ended up buying another blade and rubber after the first match (since there was someone there selling Butterfly blades).  Same model as my other two that I eventually got later that day.  Still didn't play as good as my favorite one.  But it was a whole lot closer and I played a lot better!   And after that tournament, I had three blades.  I don't think I have any of those three anymore.  Oddly enough, the best of the three was broken in the carry-on compartment of another flight because I did not have an adequate case.  One was stolen out of my car.  The third, the one I bought at the tournament, I eventually gave away because I never did like it.  Now I have one that I really really like, and I am very careful with it!    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 1:37am
So let me get this straight.  You want to practice with a blade with one feel and set of response properties, and then play serious matches with a setup with different feel and responses because you think this will make you play better?  I am sure you cannot be dissuaded from what you have decided is a good idea --and for which you seek approval.  For the sake of completeness though, here is why you will eventually give up the idea.  When you play a serious match with your suddenly slower blade, and are looking for the power you need-- say, on opening loops just to name one shot -- you will find it's not there, so you will find the need to swing harder to get the penetration you need--and then you will be rushing your shots, and mistiming.  Therefore missing more, not less.  Your blocks will go into the net, and the feel on short game will be different, causing you to overcompensate and pop balls up.  Probably lots of other bad things will happen too.  There is a reason this is not an accepted training technique for any serious players. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 12:21am
did you try it? that's why i want to try it. 

a slower blade might help with control when needed 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mizutani_jun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2011 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

It makes no sense to train with a blade that is different than the ones you will use for serious matches.  


+1...
train blade = serious match blade.
Why need to train and play serious game with different blade?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2011 at 7:36pm
It makes no sense to train with a blade that is different than the ones you will use for serious matches.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2011 at 12:42pm
I am planning to use a Viscaria for training purposes. 

I am trying to test if there is a difference between training with a faster blade and playing serious matches with a controllable one with all the same characteristics as the training blade. All are going to be with the same set of rubbers. Hence, Viscaria ---> ALC. 
 
Will it be beneficial to do so? 
Should i consider my serious blade be a Yinhe V-14 which is said to be softer and slower than a TBS?

Viscaria - 88grams
ALC - 86 grams
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvu.tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2011 at 3:21am
yes, the blades are very similar in almost all respects, and Baal got the bulls' eye that variation within the model are as large as variation between models. I also think the old Viscarias used to have different core and have softer feel than new ones, and I confirm that the only material difference between the Tb ALC aand the Viscaria is the weight distribution (having owned 4 Viscarias and 5-6 ALCs and TBSs IMO Viscarias is a more head-heavy blade than the ALC) and this is a significant difference for high-speed and power play.

Edited by vvu.tee - 10/13/2011 at 3:24am
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