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hitting with the edge of the racket intentionally

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 4:41am
Hi ZApenholder, 
I just read 2.10.1 to 2.10.1.15, again.
I do not seem to be able to read anything about hitting the ball with the edge of a racket, what with intentional hitting the ball with it being illegal.
Much obliged if you could refer us to the relevant law(s) or rule(s).
Thanks.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 4:45am
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

Hi ZApenholder, 
I just read 2.10.1 to 2.10.1.15, again.
I do not seem to be able to read anything about hitting the ball with the edge of a racket, what with intentional hitting the ball with it being illegal.
Much obliged if you could refer us to the relevant law(s) or rule(s).
Thanks.




You are spot on.
ITTF handbook says you are only allowed to hit on the surface with approved racket covering.
If you don't do that, then your shot is illegal.

So as per OP, if the player is intentionally aiming for a surface area with no racket covering, to use it like anti or what ever, the umpire may call the shot illegal.

as no where in the handbook it allows you to hit the edge (or any surface) of a racket without racket covering as legal.

So if it is not legal,  and there is a clause about what is legal, to me that is a straight forward case being won by the umpire and loss by the player.

If you are that player, how are you going to argue if there is no rule backing you?

PS, the "edge" of your blade is not defined in the handbook. For that reason, an edge can be part of a side/surface of the blade too as side/surface is the only part defined.


Edited by ZApenholder - 08/22/2022 at 4:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 5:42am
You are spot on.
ITTF handbook says you are only allowed to hit on the surface with approved racket covering.
If you don't do that, then your shot is illegal.

So as per OP, if the player is intentionally aiming for a surface area with no racket covering, to use it like anti or what ever, the umpire may call the shot illegal.

as no where in the handbook it allows you to hit the edge (or any surface) of a racket without racket covering as legal.

So if it is not legal,  and there is a clause about what is legal, to me that is a straight forward case being won by the umpire and loss by the player.

If you are that player, how are you going to argue if there is no rule backing you? - ZApenholder

"ITTF handbook says you are only allowed to hit on the surface with approved racket covering.
If you don't do that, then your shot is illegal."

sorry, do not agree.
a player can also use the handle of a racket, (any part of) the hand below the wrist to hit the ball.
there IS also no issue with repeated and intentional use of such. there are legal.
also, the surface in 2.10 refers to either side of the face of the racket. there is no mention of the edge of the racket. 
If a player uses the uncovered side (ie face) of the racket, an umpire will fault that player, that is for sure.

"as no where in the handbook it allows you to hit the edge (or any surface) of a racket without racket covering as legal."

well, I do not read anywhere in the handbook which states that a player cannot hit the ball with the edge of a racket. why would we wish to suggest otherwise ?


"So if it is not legal,  and there is a clause about what is legal, to me that is a straight forward case being won by the umpire and loss by the player."

there are subclauses in 2.10 which state the 'legals' and 'illegals' but there is no mention of of intentional hitting with the edge of a racket. 
unfortunate, for some who may encounter such instances.
( you may wish to suggest that the laws are incomplete and perfect and i may agree. which manmade laws are ? but there is a difference between a 'wish list' and an assumption. )


"If you are that player, how are you going to argue if there is no rule backing you?"

precisely, why argue when there is no such law ? 
for now, we can only hope ( or pray, very hard ), that opponent is not as good as it was claimed and should the need arises, the laws will be upgraded to accommodate this unique skill.

For now, with the existing laws, I believe it is perfectly legal if a player repeatedly and intentionally uses the edge to hit  (strike) the ball.

sorry to disagree.
thanks



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 7:18am
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

You are spot on.

sorry, do not agree.
a player can also use the handle of a racket, (any part of) the hand below the wrist to hit the ball.
there IS also no issue with repeated and intentional use of such. there are legal.



I think we all going to agree that the lack of your quote, is very difficult to read.

What clause states you are allowed to hit with the handle of the racket?
Could you name that number?

Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

You are spot on.

also, the surface in 2.10 refers to either side of the face of the racket. there is no mention of the edge of the racket. 



Who said edge is not a side of the racket?
"edge of the racket" is not defined, so that will leave room for debate.
If there is only 2 sides to the racket, then what about racket of all sizes. Say I have a 10cm thick racket, then my edge is big enough to strike the ball too, and wide enough to have more consistency than a 6mm edge

There is also no ruling that you only allowed max 2 sides in a racket


Edited by ZApenholder - 08/22/2022 at 7:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 8:35am
I think we all going to agree that the lack of your quote, is very difficult to read.

What clause states you are allowed to hit with the handle of the racket?
Could you name that number? - ZApenholder

certainly, you may wish to refer to 2.5.7 or
5.2.2.

Who said edge is not a side of the racket?
"edge of the racket" is not defined, so that will leave room for debate.- ZApenholder

if we read 2.4.6 and 7.1.1, it should be clear enough what is meant by the 'sides' of a racket. there are only two. Both clauses define what the two sides are. at least, under these laws ( rules ), there is no other side. But of course, if we insist the edge of a racket is also a 'side' of a racket, we are then not conforming to the ittf rules as indicated in 2.4.6 and 7.1.1.


If there is only 2 sides to the racket, then what about racket of all sizes.- ZApenholder

2.4.1 provides a clue to this.

Say I have a 10cm thick racket, then my edge is big enough to strike the ball too, and wide enough to have more consistency than a 6mm edge - ZApenholder

Certainly, it is perfectly legal if you use a 10cm thick racket, you may in fact wish to use a 20cm racket, under the present laws and rules, it will be legal. No joke. 

There is also no ruling that you only allowed max 2 sides in a racket - ZApenholder

are we being serious ? Shocked

thanks

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 9:58am
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

I think we all going to agree that the lack of your quote, is very difficult to read.

What clause states you are allowed to hit with the handle of the racket?
Could you name that number? - ZApenholder

certainly, you may wish to refer to 2.5.7 or
5.2.2.


2.5.7 - A player strikes the ball if he or she touches it in play with his or her racket,
held in the hand, or with his or her racket hand below the wrist.

This is the only one that has value.
But then, where does 2.4.3 come into play? both 2.4.3 and 2.10.1.8 says its okay to hit any where on the racket, then it says you must have racket covering.
So the ruling contradicts itself lol

5.2.2 do you have the right clause? Clause 5 is on anti-doping.


Quote
Who said edge is not a side of the racket?
"edge of the racket" is not defined, so that will leave room for debate.- ZApenholder

if we read 2.4.6 and 7.1.1, it should be clear enough what is meant by the 'sides' of a racket. there are only two. Both clauses define what the two sides are. at least, under these laws ( rules ), there is no other side. But of course, if we insist the edge of a racket is also a 'side' of a racket, we are then not conforming to the ittf rules as indicated in 2.4.6 and 7.1.1.



2.4.6 - it is not clear enough. It could be 2, what if I have 5 sides - like a Thor hammer?

7.1.1 you sure you got the right clause? Clause 7 is anti-harrassment.

Quote

If there is only 2 sides to the racket, then what about racket of all sizes.- ZApenholder

2.4.1 provides a clue to this.

Say I have a 10cm thick racket, then my edge is big enough to strike the ball too, and wide enough to have more consistency than a 6mm edge - ZApenholder

Certainly, it is perfectly legal if you use a 10cm thick racket, you may in fact wish to use a 20cm racket, under the present laws and rules, it will be legal. No joke.


There is also no ruling that you only allowed max 2 sides in a racket - ZApenholder

are we being serious ? Shocked

thanks


Yes, I have talked about this Thor hammer like blade in this thread a few times already.
10cm or 20cm, it is all legal. There is no limitation to how big it can be.

So if this Thor hammer blade - there is a handle then you have 5 sides.
There is 1 FH side, and a BH side.
Then you can have a top side, left side and right side.

I can leave it without racket covering and start hitting the ball on it, as according to your interpretation, it is legal to do so?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 10:30am
Hi ZApenholder,

sorry for being careless.
5.2.2 is an item from a set of FAQs published by the ittf which is intended to further explain the established laws and rules of table tennis.

'5.2.2.Service with racket handle Player X serves with his racket handle. Is this allowed? Yes. A player can strike the ball with any part of the racket held in the hand, or with the playing hand below the wrist (2.5.7), except that the player may not strike the ball with a side of the racket blade whose surface does not comply with the requirements of 2.4.3, 2.4.4 and 2.4.5. (2.10.01.7)'

You can access it from the ittf webpage.

7.1.1 refers to a clause in the handbook for match officials regarding coverings for a racket.

You can also access it from the ittf website.

'So if this Thor hammer blade - there is a handle then you have 5 sides.
There is 1 FH side, and a BH side.
Then you can have a top side, left side and right side.

I can leave it without racket covering and start hitting the ball on it, as according to your interpretation, it is legal to do so?'

You can continue to insist with this line of argument but I suspect if you will not be allowed to use it if you play in an ITTF sanctioned match.

Thanks.





Edited by penholderxxx - 08/22/2022 at 10:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 10:37am
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:


You can continue to insist with this line of argument but I suspect if you will not be allowed to use it if you play in an ITTF sanctioned match.



Why will it not be allowed?

Say I make a thinner one, 10cm edge, and do what OP is doing.
Return every service with the edge of the blade - because you provided evidence that it is allowed. Can I not use that evidence to claim my shot is legal?

Or are you saying a 5 sided racket like a Thor hammer is not allowed (no where in handbook it states this shape is not allowed Smile )

BTW. I'm stating it will be illegal due to no racket covering. I'm just using your evidence to turn it around into a Thor blade and use it against umpires.

I think what we all agree on so far is the handbook/ruling has too many vague points, grey areas, and doesn't cover everything.
Maybe some day, some hobbiest can come up with a Thor hammer blade and test the ruling.


Edited by ZApenholder - 08/22/2022 at 10:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 12:13pm
Zap, I have never seen contact with the edge of the blade ever called a fault.  Anyone that have witnessed it please reply.  Also if there is a distinction on "accidental" vs 'intentional" in the handbook, concerning the edge strike, or on any other matter, please reply.  I think it is hard to prove intentional.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Zap, I have never seen contact with the edge of the blade ever called a fault.  Anyone that have witnessed it please reply.  Also if there is a distinction on "accidental" vs 'intentional" in the handbook, concerning the edge strike, or on any other matter, please reply.  I think it is hard to prove intentional.


Hi Tom,
Me too.

But I also have never seen anyone intentional receive a serve with the edge on purpose.
So this is not an edge strike. It is Edge (wood) contact on a ball very frequently and on purpose. So to me it is no different than a Jpen back side which is pure wood too.

So everything is all hypothetically speaking and testing the boundary of the current rulings.

If your edge strike is allowed, then, OP can just get a thor hammer blade and have 3 extra flat sides that is wide enough to strike the ball and have a higher chance of getting the ball in and cause that anti effect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Zap, I have never seen contact with the edge of the blade ever called a fault.  Anyone that have witnessed it please reply.  Also if there is a distinction on "accidental" vs 'intentional" in the handbook, concerning the edge strike, or on any other matter, please reply.  I think it is hard to prove intentional.


Hi Tom,
Me too.

But I also have never seen anyone intentional receive a serve with the edge on purpose.
So this is not an edge strike. It is Edge (wood) contact on a ball very frequently and on purpose. So to me it is no different than a Jpen back side which is pure wood too.

So everything is all hypothetically speaking and testing the boundary of the current rulings.

If your edge strike is allowed, then, OP can just get a thor hammer blade and have 3 extra flat sides that is wide enough to strike the ball and have a higher chance of getting the ball in and cause that anti effect.
I didn't mean "intentional receive a serve with the edge", I meant just hitting the ball with the edge in general at any part of the point, intentional or accidental.  Never seen it faulted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

I didn't mean "intentional receive a serve with the edge", I meant just hitting the ball with the edge in general at any part of the point, intentional or accidental.  Never seen it faulted.


Yes, I hear you and agree I have never seen it faulted as everything is part of the playing hand.

But if you are in this thread, OP is talking about "intentional receive a serve with the edge"

So time for rule update if this non event becomes a norm? lol

ITTF isn't good in making the sport more popular, but they really good in updating rules



Edited by ZApenholder - 08/22/2022 at 12:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2022 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

I didn't mean "intentional receive a serve with the edge", I meant just hitting the ball with the edge in general at any part of the point, intentional or accidental.  Never seen it faulted.


Yes, I hear you and agree I have never seen it faulted as everything is part of the playing hand.

But if you are in this thread, OP is talking about "intentional receive a serve with the edge"

So time for rule update if this non event becomes a norm? lol

ITTF isn't good in making the sport more popular, but they really good in updating rules

no problem, I was not straightly referring to the OP.  BTW TT is popular, just not prestigious or respected in the West.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2022 at 9:20am
Hi ZApenholder,

" Why will it not be allowed?

Say I make a thinner one, 10cm edge, and do what OP is doing.
Return every service with the edge of the blade - because you provided evidence that it is allowed. Can I not use that evidence to claim my shot is legal?

Or are you saying a 5 sided racket like a Thor hammer is not allowed (no where in handbook it states this shape is not allowed Smile ) "

Either you have not read the clauses I mentioned or that you have misread them.

Please read them, again.

Basically, I am saying there is no law or rule which makes hitting a ball with the edge of a racket illegal and there is no law or rule in the ittf documents which says doing so intentionally is illegal.

I am also saying that your response to the OP that if the strike was intentionally done, an umpire could award the point to the opponent is not supported by any law or rule or advisory in any ittf documents.
2.10 does not make any mention of anything on this that support your view.

Please point to one clause in the laws or rules if you know of such.

From the clauses I have referred to, it is evident that there are only two sides/ faces/surfaces to a racket from which we can only adduce there is only one edge in a racket.

You could certainly try to use a five faced racket and argue with the umpire/tournament referee and insist there is no law or rule against it but as I have said, it is unlikely he/she will agree with you; with or without coverings.

Maybe you should try it and let us know.

 "I think what we all agree on so far is the handbook/ruling has too many vague points, grey areas, and doesn't cover everything. "

This has nothing to do with the OP. 
This type of sweeping and blanket statement lacks merit and does not contribute to any meaningful discussion on any specific issues.

Thanks




Edited by penholderxxx - 08/23/2022 at 9:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2022 at 10:40am
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

Hi ZApenholder,

" Why will it not be allowed?

Say I make a thinner one, 10cm edge, and do what OP is doing.
Return every service with the edge of the blade - because you provided evidence that it is allowed. Can I not use that evidence to claim my shot is legal?

Or are you saying a 5 sided racket like a Thor hammer is not allowed (no where in handbook it states this shape is not allowed Smile ) "

Either you have not read the clauses I mentioned or that you have misread them.

Please read them, again.

Basically, I am saying there is no law or rule which makes hitting a ball with the edge of a racket illegal and there is no law or rule in the ittf documents which says doing so intentionally is illegal.

I am also saying that your response to the OP that if the strike was intentionally done, an umpire could award the point to the opponent is not supported by any law or rule or advisory in any ittf documents.
2.10 does not make any mention of anything on this that support your view.

Please point to one clause in the laws or rules if you know of such.

From the clauses I have referred to, it is evident that there are only two sides/ faces/surfaces to a racket from which we can only adduce there is only one edge in a racket.

You could certainly try to use a five faced racket and argue with the umpire/tournament referee and insist there is no law or rule against it but as I have said, it is unlikely he/she will agree with you; with or without coverings.

Maybe you should try it and let us know.

 "I think what we all agree on so far is the handbook/ruling has too many vague points, grey areas, and doesn't cover everything. "

This has nothing to do with the OP. 
This type of sweeping and blanket statement lacks merit and does not contribute to any meaningful discussion on any specific issues.

Thanks




Lol

You have just made my argument valid.
everything has to do with OP, as my argument is based on that, and you have you confirmed my case!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2022 at 12:53pm
Okay,

I made a call to a friend of mine, who is an ITTF Referee.
Did a couple of finals as a blue badge IU in world champs/olympics finals before etc. So quite high up there in the world and knows a thing or two about rulings.

So she states her first reaction is not allowed due to racketing covering ruling.
But she also confirms that striking on edge is legal.
So it is at the end between these two.

She however guarantee me that should this event does occur, ITTF would update the ruling on striking, as striking on wood will be prohibited.

She also confirms 2 rubbers ( 1 per colour) max on a racket, so you can't have a black inverted and then black short pip with red anti and red inverted on my "thor blade" example.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2022 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Okay,

I made a call to a friend of mine, who is an ITTF Referee.
Did a couple of finals as a blue badge IU in world champs/olympics finals before etc. So quite high up there in the world and knows a thing or two about rulings.

So she states her first reaction is not allowed due to racketing covering ruling.
But she also confirms that striking on edge is legal.
So it is at the end between these two.

She however guarantee me that should this event does occur, ITTF would update the ruling on striking, as striking on wood will be prohibited.

She also confirms 2 rubbers ( 1 per colour) max on a racket, so you can't have a black inverted and then black short pip with red anti and red inverted on my "thor blade" example. end of quote

so my take away from the above is that striking with the edge is legal. but what do you mean "at the end between these two"?  




Edited by tom - 08/23/2022 at 3:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2022 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:


so my take away from the above is that striking with the edge is legal. but what do you mean "at the end between these two"?  



Oh, I see that part is indeed not clear - sorry about that.

My take from her explanation is there is 2 rulings, 1 saying OP is legal, 1 saying it is not.

For the ones that is ignoring OP example (and the sole purpose of this thread), striking the edge is legal if it is strike as per the circumstances that we know today - which is by accident. Same as striking the fingers of the playing hand per say.

But if someone is being clever about it (ie OP example) and want to challenge the rules, then it is between how the umpire and referee want to use these 2 rules and decide to allow it or not.
But ITTF will definitely update the ruling to make it illegal (this is as per OP's example), because striking of the ball on racket control covering is the intention at the end of the day, full stop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2022 at 11:56pm
I think if i were to use this technique in a competition intentionally, i just wouldn't brag about it lol - just pretend nothing happened. It's cool that there's an option to do a pseudo long pip / anti receive with a double inverted setup anyway xD 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/24/2022 at 5:23am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I think if i were to use this technique in a competition intentionally, i just wouldn't brag about it lol - just pretend nothing happened. It's cool that there's an option to do a pseudo long pip / anti receive with a double inverted setup anyway xD 


Then your practice partner will be upset with you, since you started a thread and got the whole world to see his evil plan lol

If ITTF does update ruling, then you are also responsible for that
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/24/2022 at 9:30am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I think if i were to use this technique in a competition intentionally, i just wouldn't brag about it lol - just pretend nothing happened. It's cool that there's an option to do a pseudo long pip / anti receive with a double inverted setup anyway xD 


Then your practice partner will be upset with you, since you started a thread and got the whole world to see his evil plan lol

If ITTF does update ruling, then you are also responsible for that

LOL that'll be even cooler, hey I made the ITTF change the rule xD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/24/2022 at 11:16am
Hi ZApenholder,

What your friend had said was essentially what I have said.

Please read on the references quoted. 

The answers are there and were highlighted in our discussion.
1) There is no issue with hitting the ball with the edge of a racket; intentional or otherwise.
2) There are only two sides to a racket.

In your jumbled up explanation after having spoken to your friend, you said that your friend's first reaction was to not allow ( the use of a racket ) was because of ' racketing covering ruling '. You had then said she confirmed that there can be a maximum of two 'rubbers' on a racket.

You had state that your friend guaranteed you that ' should this event does occur, ITTF would update the ruling on striking, as striking on wood will be prohibited '.

I wonder what this 'event' might be ?
Is it striking the ball with the edge or  intentional striking the ball with the edge of a legal racket or striking the ball with your Thor blade ?
As in the above, striking the ball with the edge of a 2 face racket is okay and there IS no law saying a player cannot intentionally strike a ball with the edge.
If that 'event' involves your Thor blade, the answer is obvious, is it not ?

' My take from her explanation is there is 2 rulings, 1 saying OP is legal, 1 saying it is not.

For the ones that is ignoring OP example (and the sole purpose of this thread), striking the edge is legal if it is strike as per the circumstances that we know today - which is by accident. Same as striking the fingers of the playing hand per say.

But if someone is being clever about it (ie OP example) and want to challenge the rules, then it is between how the umpire and referee want to use these 2 rules and decide to allow it or not.
But ITTF will definitely update the ruling to make it illegal (this is as per OP's example), because striking of the ball on racket control covering is the intention at the end of the day, full stop. '

Wrong, again.

If there is no rule stating that intentional striking the ball with the edge of a racket, how then can an umpire rule that it is illegal. 
Please explain and enlighten how the umpire can decide on a ruling if there is no such rule.

Nothing wrong though if you wish or hope the ittf will change or update the rule to make it illegal to strike a ball intentionally.

Maybe. Maybe, with the updated rule, each time 'it' happens, the umpire will ask, " Did you do it intentionally ? " and the player admits to doing so, where hence the point is awarded to the opponent.

Thanks. 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/24/2022 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

Hi ZApenholder,

What your friend had said was essentially what I have said.

Please read on the references quoted. 

The answers are there and were highlighted in our discussion.
1) There is no issue with hitting the ball with the edge of a racket; intentional or otherwise.
2) There are only two sides to a racket.

In your jumbled up explanation after having spoken to your friend, you said that your friend's first reaction was to not allow ( the use of a racket ) was because of ' racketing covering ruling '. You had then said she confirmed that there can be a maximum of two 'rubbers' on a racket.

You had state that your friend guaranteed you that ' should this event does occur, ITTF would update the ruling on striking, as striking on wood will be prohibited '.

I wonder what this 'event' might be ?
Is it striking the ball with the edge or  intentional striking the ball with the edge of a legal racket or striking the ball with your Thor blade ?
As in the above, striking the ball with the edge of a 2 face racket is okay and there IS no law saying a player cannot intentionally strike a ball with the edge.
If that 'event' involves your Thor blade, the answer is obvious, is it not ?

' My take from her explanation is there is 2 rulings, 1 saying OP is legal, 1 saying it is not.

For the ones that is ignoring OP example (and the sole purpose of this thread), striking the edge is legal if it is strike as per the circumstances that we know today - which is by accident. Same as striking the fingers of the playing hand per say.

But if someone is being clever about it (ie OP example) and want to challenge the rules, then it is between how the umpire and referee want to use these 2 rules and decide to allow it or not.
But ITTF will definitely update the ruling to make it illegal (this is as per OP's example), because striking of the ball on racket control covering is the intention at the end of the day, full stop. '

Wrong, again.

If there is no rule stating that intentional striking the ball with the edge of a racket, how then can an umpire rule that it is illegal. 
Please explain and enlighten how the umpire can decide on a ruling if there is no such rule.

Nothing wrong though if you wish or hope the ittf will change or update the rule to make it illegal to strike a ball intentionally.

Maybe. Maybe, with the updated rule, each time 'it' happens, the umpire will ask, " Did you do it intentionally ? " and the player admits to doing so, where hence the point is awarded to the opponent.

Thanks. 







Sorry, but I can't read our quotations easy.
If you can learn to use QUOTE and /QUOTE command, it would make life a lot easier.

I read halfway, and then got lost.
I think I know what you want to say.

My friend said, "event" if someone intentionally starts using edge of a racket to strike the ball, back with the grey area of the current ruling, they will certainly change the ruling to be striking with racket covering, as the whole purpose of racket covering is to control the striking of the ball.

We both don't think ITTF sanctioned tournament would have OP's partner playing, nor would it become an event worthy to be in the referee's meeting.
But should one day, such an event does occur, it does sound like she is in agreement to make sure such actions are illegal.

How and what not, they will implement, I don't know and that is not the point of debate. I'm just saying of this whole thread in the eye of her, is an illegal ball and if ruling is not strong enough, they will make it strong enough by updating the ruling.

End of the day, striking is with racket covering and if you trying to avoid racket covering as per OP's example, then you are just trying to justify the legality of an illegal intention. Hence in the event of that, they will make your justification no more.



Edited by ZApenholder - 08/24/2022 at 12:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2022 at 8:12am

 ' Sorry, but I can't read our quotations easy.
If you can learn to use QUOTE and /QUOTE command, it would make life a lot easier.

I read halfway, and then got lost.
I think I know what you want to say.

My friend said, "event" if someone intentionally starts using edge of a racket to strike the ball, back with the grey area of the current ruling, they will certainly change the ruling to be striking with racket covering, as the whole purpose of racket covering is to control the striking of the ball.

We both don't think ITTF sanctioned tournament would have OP's partner playing, nor would it become an event worthy to be in the referee's meeting.
But should one day, such an event does occur, it does sound like she is in agreement to make sure such actions are illegal.

How and what not, they will implement, I don't know and that is not the point of debate. I'm just saying of this whole thread in the eye of her, is an illegal ball and if ruling is not strong enough, they will make it strong enough by updating the ruling.

End of the day, striking is with racket covering and if you trying to avoid racket covering as per OP's example, then you are just trying to justify the legality of an illegal intention. Hence in the event of that, they will make your justification no more. ' - ZApenholder

Please ask your friend if there is a rule which makes it illegal to strike a ball with the edge of a racket, even if it was intentional.
If there is, please show.
If there is no such rule, how can it be illegal ?

Honestly though, I think the idea of trying to learn how to hit the ball with the edge of a racket to gain an advantage in a competition is silly. 

Good day.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2022 at 9:50am
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

Please ask your friend if there is a rule which makes it illegal to strike a ball with the edge of a racket, even if it was intentional.
If there is, please show.
If there is no such rule, how can it be illegal ?



Hi there

I have already answered this already, not sure where in the above, am I not clear?

She would not allow it if she was on duty.
1 rule allow it, the other rule does not allow it.

But since racket covering is required for striking the ball,  the rules will be updated to state clearly that this won't be allowed.

Does that make sense to you?
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