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Done with Water Based Glue?

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icontek View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12/13/2009 at 11:21am
After trying several Water based glues in the last year (Free Chack, Dawei, and finally Tearmender which was cheaper and better than the TT - Specific glues), I've decided to stop water based gluing.

Why?

-Moisture damage to wood
 (especially when it seeps past the top edge)
-Potential splinter damage, even on well sealed blades
 (taking rubber off is a gamble)
-Rubber cement is simply easier to work with.
 (it's easy to peel and re-position used rubbers for a more perfect blade fit)

In one short year, I've ruined 2 blades with Water based glue.

As an EJ with spare blades, this hasn't crippled my game as one of the blades was a cheapo, but a favorite nonetheless.  But I can't imagine what others went through - those who have been playing with the same blade for 5+ years - the first time their "baby" lost splinters in to top ply or had it's feel altered by water glue...

Who else has abandoned Water glues?


It seems pretty wacky that in order to use a TT manufacturer's glue that I should first have to put thompson's water seal, and then use a poly sealer to finish / protect each blade (from water damage and splintering, respectively). I would imagine the risk of altering the feel of the blade to be significant.

And for those who have kept water gluing, what brands and what sort of sealing/varnishing are you using?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kelvinyoong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 11:42am
I stopped using water based glues after the 3 time using. I tend to change rubbers alot when i experiment and using VOC glue was easier especially for reapplying and reattaching.

I use the glass plate glue method so most of my rubbers are like Post IT notes now. I don't even have to glue the blade anymore. I just position and gently roll the rubber on.

My only worry is the latest rubber technology might be not be VOC friendly even though i don't speed glue and only use VOC glue to stick the rubber to the blade.

Regardless, i believe sealing the blade is still a must. Just don't over do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich215 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 11:55am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:



-Moisture damage to wood
 (especially when it seeps past the top edge)
-Potential splinter damage, even on well sealed blades
 (taking rubber off is a gamble)
-Rubber cement is simply easier to work with.
 (it's easy to peel and re-position used rubbers for a more perfect blade fit)


Who else has abandoned Water glues?


I have been comparing TE with RC for awhile now......I have not ever had any of your experiences with Tear Mender....but have had problems with Rubber Cement.   I have ruined one lightly sealed blade with Rubber Cement and find it more difficult to work with than TE.  I like TE for positioning cut rubbers much better than RC.  Odd that we have such different experiences. 

Does anyone have physical proof of a damaged blade (besides splintering) from using water based glues?  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpgh2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 11:56am
i have no idea what you guys are talking about seriously, i slap on a thin layer of x-glue and it comes off really easy. i mean it's just a rubber compound that dries up basically. i just rub my fingers together (if i have some that's on my fingers) and it just comes off. same thing with the blade.

when i peel off my rubbers it doesn't have any risk of splintering b/c it's not that strong and yet holds the rubber firmly. (strong would be tibhar clean fix - damn near impossible to remove)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote holda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 12:28pm
using Yasaka water-based glue left me with 2 slightly damaged blades and two more still have some of this glue remaining on them.terrible stuff,voc glues-always,forever!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich215 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 12:31pm
It sure seems that all water based glues are not the same!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverhair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

i have no idea what you guys are talking about seriously, i slap on a thin layer of x-glue and it comes off really easy. i mean it's just a rubber compound that dries up basically. i just rub my fingers together (if i have some that's on my fingers) and it just comes off. same thing with the blade.

when i peel off my rubbers it doesn't have any risk of splintering b/c it's not that strong and yet holds the rubber firmly. (strong would be tibhar clean fix - damn near impossible to remove)



I'm probably not being completely clear in the discussions regarding water-based glues vs. non-water-based glues.  Its not about whether the rubber will stick to the blade, its about what water does to the blade.

EVERY blade should be sealed with a couple of THIN coats of lacquer or polyurethane when the blade arrives.  Then the glue should be applied to the blade.  Sealing will inhibit splintering.  Sealing will NOT prevent water penetration.  Water from water-based glue or other sources WILL penetrate the wood and cause deterioration.  Period. 

Once the blade is sealed, thin coats of Elmer's Wrinkle-Free Rubber Cement works very well.  This material will probably pass VOC-detection as fast or faster than it would take most new rubber to air out after attaching it on a blade with water-based glue.

(That said, someone recently posted that they used a first coat of Thompson's Water Seal on their blade.  Not sure how that will work, but lacquer or polyurethane may not adhere properly.  Water-based glues may not work well at all when applied to that kind of sealed surface since Thomspon's repels water.  Time will tell.)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 1:09pm

I haven't used Tearmeander, but I've used Butterfly Free Chack and a DHS water-based glue. I've heard from a few people that the DHS glue is supposed to be a bit milder in its adhesion properties.

Nonetheless, I've had issues with both--blade splintering, difficulty with positioning, and much more difficult removal of glue pack (especially from the sponge). Using rubber cement, I've had none of those issues, nor any of the supposed issues with the VOC content negatively affecting the sponge. No doming, no drop off in performance, nothing.
 
So, for me:
 
Water-based = hassle.
Rubber cement = no problems.
 
Asking for proof about the possible damage to wood caused by the water in water-based glue is understandable and commendable. However, proof in this case may be difficult to come by even if it is a perfectly valid claim. Yes, the stronger bond is what likely causes splintering of the wood. But what of those who've experienced splintering even after "sealing" their blade? Could it be that multiple gluing (i.e. multiple saturation) of the very thin plies on their blade could be slowly causing tiny deformations which facilitate the pulling away of the wood grain?
 
I know what water does to wood. I was a carpenter for 5 years. So my reasoning isn't wild speculation, I don't think. Plus, I love my current set up, so as long as I know rubber cement doesn't harm my rubber, and I know water-based glue does increase risk of splintering, then I'm going to minimize my risk as much as possible.
 
As I said, definitive proof may be difficult to come by in this specific situation, unless we have any chemists out there who are interested in taking up the challenge. Perhaps we can contact the authors of these papers:
 
 
 
LOLLOL
 
Anyway, I will admit it's not an issue that yields a definitive answer (in either direction) but rather, it's an issue of probability (chance). I'm taking my chances with rubber cement. If others choose not to, then that is obviously totally up to them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverhair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Rich215 Rich215 wrote:

It sure seems that all water based glues are not the same!


You're probably right.  But ALL water-based glues have at least one thing in common: water.  Nobody disputes that water isn't good for wood and causes it to break down.  There is consensus that sealing the blade helps prevent splintering but doesn't prevent water penetration.

So the bottom line is that water-based glues will damage blades.  That's bad for those having to purchase the blades, but is a very big windfall for blade manufacturers. 

Maybe some of us should start thinking about using something other than water or VOC as a glue base.  Something that would dry fast and would not damage wood or the rubber (an alcohol?).  Or maybe a two-part adhesive that would only activate when mixed, but would not be a strong or stiff adhesive. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich215 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by silverhair silverhair wrote:

  But ALL water-based glues have at least one thing in common: water.  Nobody disputes that water isn't good for wood and causes it to break down.  There is consensus that sealing the blade helps prevent splintering but doesn't prevent water penetration.


How much water are we talking here with a typical application?   We are not dousing the blade or submerging it...or leaving it in the rain for hours. If the blade absorbs what ever amount of water from water glues....does 100% of that water remain in the wood....or does it dry out eventually?


Originally posted by silverhair silverhair wrote:


So the bottom line is that water-based glues will damage blades.  That's bad for those having to purchase the blades, but is a very big windfall for blade manufacturers. 


Again, show some proof...and to what extent of damage are you talking about?   I have never ever heard or seen someone say or show that their blade was damaged (other than splintering...which can be from any type of glue almost) and they needed a new one from using water based glues....no matter how many times they have glued it.  One blade I have, Yasaka Extra, I have glued probably 25+ times in a period of 6 months with different rubbers for testing.   There is no sign of wood fiber damage or playing difference or weight gain. 

Also, manufactures are selling many blades because of how many different ones they make....and because of us EJ's LOL   I do not think they are making repeat sales because of water damage due to what glues they are using. 

 

Originally posted by silverhair silverhair wrote:


Maybe some of us should start thinking about using something other than water or VOC as a glue base.  Something that would dry fast and would not damage wood or the rubber (an alcohol?).  Or maybe a two-part adhesive that would only activate when mixed, but would not be a strong or stiff adhesive. 



I would think any 2 part glues/adhesives would have higher VOC content than Rubber Cement.  ?



HAAAA this discussion is almost like "Which came first...the chicken or the egg"   Geek



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryu_S_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 2:35pm
sealed my blade with hairspray and using butterfly free chack, don't faced any problems yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anubhav1984 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 3:05pm
Trust me on this folks, Haifu Water Solubility Bond is a pleasure to work with! You would not find any splinter problems with it and it would not even damage the top ply! I have been using it since the past 2-3 months now and i cannot be more happy.
Even i was an ardent fan of VOC based glues earlier because of the ease of working with them. But Haifu is even easier and it does not have any adverse effects too!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zrrbiteDK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 3:24pm
Water based glue is fine. You're doing it wrong :P

It's been said by others; glues are different. You may want to give Andro Free a try, it's never given me any problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverhair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by zrrbiteDK zrrbiteDK wrote:

Water based glue is fine. You're doing it wrong :P

It's been said by others; glues are different. You may want to give Andro Free a try, it's never given me any problems.


I agree.  Sorta.  The wrong part about using water-based glue is when it's used on table tennis blades. 

Give it a little time and it will (not might) ruin your blade face. 

That's great for the blade manufacturers!  You'll have to get a new blade more often!  It might also be good for you if you like to change blades often.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zrrbiteDK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by silverhair silverhair wrote:

Originally posted by zrrbiteDK zrrbiteDK wrote:

Water based glue is fine. You're doing it wrong :P

It's been said by others; glues are different. You may want to give Andro Free a try, it's never given me any problems.


I agree.  Sorta.  The wrong part about using water-based glue is when it's used on table tennis blades. 

Give it a little time and it will (not might) ruin your blade face. 

That's great for the blade manufacturers!  You'll have to get a new blade more often!  It might also be good for you if you like to change blades often.



But i *am* using it on table tennis blades : ) ALOT. I mean, alot. The glue comes right off with a slight bit of rubbing.

Glue will ruin your blade if it's not sealed right, that's it. Same thing with VOC glues. It's no different now, but water based glue is stronger, so sealant becomes more necessary. There is no conspiracy!

Your claim that my blade face will, without a doubt, get ruined after " a little" time is baseless, and i think only fueled by your own bad experiences. I'm sorry you're having problems, it sucks getting your equipment ruined. I've had blades ruined by universal VOC glues like Stiga Victory too back in the day before i started getting my blades varnished.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverhair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by zrrbiteDK zrrbiteDK wrote:

Originally posted by silverhair silverhair wrote:

Originally posted by zrrbiteDK zrrbiteDK wrote:

Water based glue is fine. You're doing it wrong :P

It's been said by others; glues are different. You may want to give Andro Free a try, it's never given me any problems.


I agree.  Sorta.  The wrong part about using water-based glue is when it's used on table tennis blades. 

Give it a little time and it will (not might) ruin your blade face. 

That's great for the blade manufacturers!  You'll have to get a new blade more often!  It might also be good for you if you like to change blades often.



But i *am* using it on table tennis blades : ) ALOT. I mean, alot. The glue comes right off with a slight bit of rubbing.

Glue will ruin your blade if it's not sealed right, that's it. Same thing with VOC glues. It's no different now, but water based glue is stronger, so sealant becomes more necessary. There is no conspiracy!

Your claim that my blade face will, without a doubt, get ruined after " a little" time is baseless, and i think only fueled by your own bad experiences. I'm sorry you're having problems, it sucks getting your equipment ruined. I've had blades ruined by universal VOC glues like Stiga Victory too back in the day before i started getting my blades varnished.




You have a bit of misconception about sealing.  Its used to inhibit splintering.  Sealing will NOT prevent water penetration.  Leave a glass full of ice water on wood furniture (selaed, right?) and watch teh ring form from water penetrating the "sealed" furniture.  Same thing with your blade. 

But that's not a bad thing if you like to change blades often.  LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by zrrbiteDK zrrbiteDK wrote:


Your claim that my blade face will, without a doubt, get ruined after " a little" time is baseless, and i think only fueled by your own bad experiences.


You likely would not notice gradual change in the blades playing characteristics if they are occurring over such a period of time.

Now you *could* test your hypothesis by purchasing two of the same blade, sealing them both in the same manner, and then gluing one with VOC based adhesives for a year, and the other with Water Based glues for a year. Make sure to split playtime and number of gluings evenly. And then get back to us to note your findings :)

Empirical evidence is hardly baseless. Any carpenter or homeowner who's had to repair water damaged areas of their home (plywood, 2x4's, etc.) can back me up on this one.

Water is a natural enemy of dried plywood.

Why do you think pressure treated wood or even synthetics are commonly used for any outdoor applications? (patios, decking).

The debate should be whether or not the STRUCTURAL changes that occur in plywood exposed to water significantly compromise the FEEL and LIFESPAN of the blade over time. And I'm convinced that variables like the type of glue used (like water soluble hide glues), and blade storage conditions will also play a role (micoroganisms like mold or fungi generally like dark cool places like your racquet case).

And if you want to boggle yourself unnecessarily, or somehow still don't believe that the structural and mechanical properties of plywood are altered by applied moisture, you can have a nice long read

here

If the article is simply too much (I just jumped to the test results), how about a quick quote from answers.com

"Exterior glued plywood is suitable for outdoor use, but because moisture affects the strength of wood, optimal performance is achieved in end uses where woods moisture content remains relatively low."

and wikipedia.org

"If left untreated, wood that is exposed to moisture or soil for sustained periods of time will become weakened by various types of fungi, bacteria or insects."

And while I'm not suggesting that "bugs will begin to eat your blade" I am saying that you are conveniently choosing to ignore facts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zrrbiteDK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by zrrbiteDK zrrbiteDK wrote:


Your claim that my blade face will, without a doubt, get ruined after " a little" time is baseless, and i think only fueled by your own bad experiences.


Your experiences with a year of water gluing aren't necessarily anything other than anecdotal. You likely would not notice gradual change in the blades playing characteristics if they are occurring over such a period of time.



Okay, you guys are just proving my point, really. You're saying that we're all guessing here, basically.

All i'm saying is that i've had no problems, while you have. But the time period in which i've had no problems, is not enough to prove my point? Then it's surely not enough to prove yours : ) Paralells to how water interacts with wood is not good enough. My blades are as good as new.

The strength of water based glue means i dont even need to use it on my blades, but on the rubbers only.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverhair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by zrrbiteDK zrrbiteDK wrote:

Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by zrrbiteDK zrrbiteDK wrote:


Your claim that my blade face will, without a doubt, get ruined after " a little" time is baseless, and i think only fueled by your own bad experiences.


Your experiences with a year of water gluing aren't necessarily anything other than anecdotal. You likely would not notice gradual change in the blades playing characteristics if they are occurring over such a period of time.



Okay, you guys are just proving my point, really. You're saying that we're all guessing here, basically.

All i'm saying is that i've had no problems, while you have. But the time period in which i've had no problems, is not enough to prove my point? Then it's surely not enough to prove yours : ) Paralells to how water interacts with wood is not good enough. My blades are as good as new.

The strength of water based glue means i dont even need to use it on my blades, but on the rubbers only.



A guess?  OK, and I guess that that you're ruining your blade by using water on it.  No, actually it's not a guess, but you don't care.  You've already made up your mind.  Please keep using water-based glues.  The blade manufacturers need the business.  It's your nickel. 

But you must be an expert on wood, so go for it.  Most of the rest of us know better. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asyraf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 11:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 7plywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 11:11pm
I am still using Free Chack. Serves me well for a long time already. My blades are fine, no damage whatsoever. VOC glue is easier to work with, but for Tenergy is not an option IMO, since it gradually shrinks and hardens the sponge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thaidog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2009 at 11:40pm
I have have yet to use any water based glue at all... and I will not be until problems like what I have read in this thread stop and the price comes down. Otherwise I'll be using Best Test for life. And to think I used to hate people so cheap they would buy the stuff instead of ITTF approved glues.

Maybe we should start "Clan Best Test"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2009 at 12:08am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by zrrbiteDK zrrbiteDK wrote:


Your claim that my blade face will, without a doubt, get ruined after " a little" time is baseless, and i think only fueled by your own bad experiences.


You likely would not notice gradual change in the blades playing characteristics if they are occurring over such a period of time.

Empirical evidence is hardly baseless. Any carpenter or homeowner who's had to repair water damaged areas of their home (plywood, 2x4's, etc.) can back me up on this one.

Water is a natural enemy of dried plywood.

Why do you think pressure treated wood or even synthetics are commonly used for any outdoor applications? (patios, decking).



"Evaluation of oriented strandboard and plywood subjected to severe relative humidity and temperature conditions."

That's the title to the article you cited.  Somehow, I don't see how exposing a blade to a very small amount (half a teaspoon?) of water ever couple of months equates to anything "severe."

Face it,  just using a blade probably damages it from the repeated stresses - and that doesn't even consider shocks from thinks like striking the table.  As for water glues and water, matters is whether or not the damage is sufficient to affect the way the ball plays.

Considering the very minute amount of water involved and the frequency of exposure, it seems to me quite a jump to assume that the damage that might occur actually matters.  Wood, after all, is a natural material that varies in its properties.  I have identical model blades that play differently.  Shoot, for all I know, a little bit of "damage" might improve the way a particular blade plays. 

My experience is that any damage that might occur from water based glues is not noticeable as changes in playing characteristics.  I'd expect environmental humidity to be a bigger issue in many locations.
 
It is all well and good to document that water damages wood.  It is quite another matter to quantify the degree of damage and show that exposing a blade to a very small amount of water for a short period of time once every couple months causes damage to a degree that matters.  Take your plywood article and have them do their testing after brushing the wood with a damp cloth six times a year and see what the results are.

The notion that water based glues will ruin a blade due to water damage has yet to be demonstrated on this forum.  That water can damage wood is not proof.  I suspect, as people have reported, that the tendency of some glues to grip so well and hence splinter the wood is a much bigger hazard.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverhair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2009 at 12:08am
Originally posted by asyraf asyraf wrote:

check this all.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWVCZG5YyA0


Two quick comments....

1.  It's still WATER on the blade face.

2.  His method traps the moisture under the rubber onto the blade face just to make sure that the blade gets ruined. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich215 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2009 at 12:47am
Originally posted by silverhair silverhair wrote:


Two quick comments....

1.  It's still WATER on the blade face.

2.  His method traps the moisture under the rubber onto the blade face just to make sure that the blade gets ruined. 




1. You still have not shown any proof of any blade damage from water glues. Since you are so overtly imposing the notion that blades are ruined from using said glues.....there must be 100's of people upset because their blades are ruined and now have to replace them. So obviously those people are posting on any given TT forum about all this right?

2.  I do believe that there is a layer of sponge separating the blade from the rubber.....and it is breathable....yes?

3.  Are you related to Al Gore?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2009 at 12:59am
Originally posted by silverhair silverhair wrote:

Originally posted by asyraf asyraf wrote:

check this all.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWVCZG5YyA0


Two quick comments....

1.  It's still WATER on the blade face.

2.  His method traps the moisture under the rubber onto the blade face just to make sure that the blade gets ruined. 




Yes, clearly that puts water on the blade.  As for ruining the blade, I've been using TearMender for over two years now, and the only observed negative effects to the blade was the splintering that occured when I first removed a rubber from an unsealed blade after it was glued with TearMender.

Amazingly, after all this "blade ruining" abuse, my blades work just fine.

Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2009 at 1:06am
Originally posted by Rich215 Rich215 wrote:


2.  I do believe that there is a layer of sponge separating the blade from the rubber.....and it is breathable....yes?



Not very.  Table tennis sponge is of the closed cell type.  And while air might pass through rubber slowly, water vapor either doesn't pass or does so much more slowly. 

But the amount of water "trapped" is very low.  I suspect people who live in a humid environment expose their rackets to potential damage to their rackets as the blade absorbs or gives off water in the atmosphere than is likely from gluing a racket half a dozen times a year with a water based glue. 
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverhair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2009 at 1:25am
Here's the bottom line and my last post on this thread....

Water harms wood.  It doesn't matter if the wood is on a dining room table, floor joists in a home, the wood playing surface in a gymnasium or a table tennis paddle.  Water-based glues contain guess what...  Water.  So the use of water-based glue on a wooden table tennis paddle is bad for the wood.

Now you can ignore the facts and keep using water-based glues (and renew your membership to the flat-earth society), or you can face the facts that using the glue screws up your paddle and you can budget the extra money to get new blades more often.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dauntless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2009 at 1:32am
Not going into the whole water damage thing or reverse anyone's giving up water based glue.

I have used Andro Free with Andro Free Sealer
I would say that the bond was not terrific, no doubt less strong than finezip (below) but never had any serious de-lam during a match or anything. Put it on a friend's blade and glued it up, no problem-- he used it for a year with no problems and when I re-glued his next sheet for him-- no problem peeling or re-gluing. I used up an entire set of sealer and glue and never had an incident.

I have used Nittaku Finezip:
I hated this product at first. I rushed and did not let the glue dry enough the first time and it was a true nightmare...had to clean up glue from rubber and it sucked so bad.
then i learned to let it DRY all the way, til it was completely clear. Some days this took almost 30 minutes due to humidity. After this revelation, no problems. As far as reglueing, forget it. Not the best for changing rubbers all the time or re-gluing. I have had some slight splintering on an unsealed blade and I should mention that it would have been better with a light seal job.

You can still buy old VOC glue in limited quantities or you can use rubber cement and as long as you are just affixing it to the blade and not trying to put like 15 layers thick layers on, it should be OK once the VOCs dissipate.

I use both and they are both good. If you are changing a lot, then use rubber cement or old school VOC glues.  If you just want to affix to blade and then let the rubber wear out, then it is a toss up. You will probably want to seal blade with something if you use water glue. Andro stuff was good, finezip adheres better with more rubber-like properties. Once completely dry, the finezip peels off the rubber once you get a good technique down.
---
I just ran out of glue and I am probably going to source some VOC glue if possible. Cole uses best test I think and says it is good. Elmers is kind of thick, but works. PP still stocks some VOC stuff I think. Next year, I will most likely buy some finezip or try other water glue for tournament.

---

Maybe we could share which glues are worth using if you feel you must use water based glues.

I would vote for Nittaku Finezip on a lightly (two super thin coats VOC poly sealer) sealed blade
1. BTY Primorac, Nittaku H3N, T64 2. BTY Primorac, H3N, Mendo MP Feedback
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongrob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/2009 at 1:58am
Here's my take on this issue. As a dealer of table tennis goods and a Technical Manager of a Paint Firm, I have glued literally thousands of blades together. Using the old VOC based glues resulted in many blade with splinters being pulled off, if the blade face wasn't sealed. For those that recon it was the quality of the Blade, I say Bu**S*it. I've had top end butterfly blades peel, just like some Donic & Andro Blades. So it always pays to seal - even if its a single thin layer. In the past when I used Polyurethane's, I would brush a coat on, let it sit for a few minutes, then wipe it all off. This was enough to stop most splintering.

Now for the stuff that causes arguments with some of the forum members. Water is not bad for timber. Lots of water is bad for timber. 1 single thin coat of water based polyurethane, and by this I mean Andro Free Seal, Donic Vario Clean etc, will work fine. The water in the sealer evaporates well before any damage can be caused. Its this evaporation that allows the cross-linking of the molecules to take place. (water based sealers are also polyurethanes) I have 30 odd blades that belong to myself that are all sealed with water based polyurathes and glued with water glue which are proof of the fact that it does not damage your blade.

Now if you think that a small amount of water can actually break the ply bond in your blade and warp the surface, then you are not from this planet.  I see lots of people that try and use water based glues to stick rubbers onto blades before they are sealed - Thats a big NO NO. This will for sure create havoc with your blade & Sponge.

Remember that Tree's once apon a time had water running through them, it actually stopped them from rotting. On of the major sources of damaged timber is when the moisture completely dries out. A little bit of moisture will not do any harm.

Now what I would like to find out - without blaming anyone or anything, is why have some members experienced a total different result to me.

Does it have something to do with the amount of sealer that is used.
Does it have something to do with the Moisture content in the area that you live in.
Does it have something to do with the environment that the blade is stored in.

Answers to the above questions will hopefully help us all understand how not to have a blade ruined.
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