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SoWhySoSerious View Drop Down
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http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=RwAqiSVsT6s
Timo Boll-Chuan Chih Yuan Final
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=BFjhmSqRtaY
Timo Boll-Cheung Yuk
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=_g0Z8VZfbR0
Timo Boll-Yoshida Kaii
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=gGE36i_bx-Q
Nikoleta Stefanova-Tamara Boros
http://www.youtube.com/ttCountenance

Don't lose yourself in table tennis, whatever it means to you.
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amateur View Drop Down
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The Donic website now has what seems to be the fullest account of the "misunderstanding", and it's all starting to make sense:
http://donicext.dbap.de

- Crisan's paddle failed the pre-match test because the rubber thickness exceeded 4mm
- he did not have a second paddle at hand and submitted Cioti's paddle as a backup, which passed the test
- he and his coach indicated (to Boll and others) that he would rather default the match than play with Cioti's paddle (different rubber/blades/sponsor)
- the tournament director Rainer Kruschel became nervous, took Crisan's paddle, and went (along with assistant referee Carlos Zapata) to the racket control room to check whether Crisan's paddle had indeed failed the test. They asked the official in charge of racket control (Nobuyiki Shirakawa, member of the ITTF's equipment committee) for the test report for Crisan's paddle. Shirakawa showed them mistakenly the test report for Cioti's paddle, which had passed the test. Kruschel asked whether that was indeed the test report for Crisan's paddle, which they had taken with them to the room; Shirakawa said yes. Kruschel then went back to Crisan and told him his paddle was legal.

Quote from DONIC: "Undoubtedly Adrian Crisan played with an illegal paddle, and considering this his disqualification is justified. But he acted in good faith and did not knowingly do anything forbidden. ... There was definitely no sleight-of-hand by which he switched paddles, as the umpires and ITTF had suggested. Only a chain of unfortunate events, at the end of which there were only many losers."

[By the way, manluski, DONIC is a German company...]
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Originally posted by SoWhySoSerious SoWhySoSerious wrote:

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=RwAqiSVsT6s
Timo Boll-Chuan Chih Yuan Final
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=BFjhmSqRtaY
Timo Boll-Cheung Yuk
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=_g0Z8VZfbR0
Timo Boll-Yoshida Kaii
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=gGE36i_bx-Q
Nikoleta Stefanova-Tamara Boros



If you have real videos - AVI, MPEG, MP4 or ASF files, could you please (please!) upload them somewhere accessible - like megaupload.com ? That is really easy and we will be eternally grateful!

Thank you very much!
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manluski View Drop Down
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donic, addidas, joola,  etc are all part of the german conspiracy and should be boycotted. no more addidas shoes for me.
 
when timo wins all this tourments, the players he defeated are less perfect. was timo bolls paddle checked.
 
i hope nazism is not reemerging in tt. 150,000usd x10 = 1.5million usd, or x20 = 3.0million usd and x100 = 15million usd.
 
germany will pay for this. no way out.
manluski
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Originally posted by manluski manluski wrote:

donic, addidas, joola,  etc are all part of the german conspiracy and should be boycotted. no more addidas shoes for me.
 
when timo wins all this tourments, the players he defeated are less perfect. was timo bolls paddle checked.
 
i hope nazism is not reemerging in tt. 150,000usd x10 = 1.5million usd, or x20 = 3.0million usd and x100 = 15million usd.
 
germany will pay for this. no way out.
 
You're on fire Pinch.
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amateur View Drop Down
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Originally posted by varghesep varghesep wrote:

 
You're on fire Pinch.


I think he's on something else...

The "conspiracy" obviously includes Japan (racket control official), so no more Asics, Nittaku, Butterfly... Also Spain (Zapata), Canada (Sharara), all those in favor of the booster ban, everyone will have to "pay"! manluski, what's your account number?
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Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

The Donic website now has what seems to be the fullest account of the "misunderstanding", and it's all starting to make sense:
http://donicext.dbap.de

- Crisan's paddle failed the pre-match test because the rubber thickness exceeded 4mm
- he did not have a second paddle at hand and submitted Cioti's paddle as a backup, which passed the test
- he and his coach indicated (to Boll and others) that he would rather default the match than play with Cioti's paddle (different rubber/blades/sponsor)
- the tournament director Rainer Kruschel became nervous, took Crisan's paddle, and went (along with assistant referee Carlos Zapata) to the racket control room to check whether Crisan's paddle had indeed failed the test. They asked the official in charge of racket control (Nobuyiki Shirakawa, member of the ITTF's equipment committee) for the test report for Crisan's paddle. Shirakawa showed them mistakenly the test report for Cioti's paddle, which had passed the test. Kruschel asked whether that was indeed the test report for Crisan's paddle, which they had taken with them to the room; Shirakawa said yes. Kruschel then went back to Crisan and told him his paddle was legal.

Quote from DONIC: "Undoubtedly Adrian Crisan played with an illegal paddle, and considering this his disqualification is justified. But he acted in good faith and did not knowingly do anything forbidden. ... There was definitely no sleight-of-hand by which he switched paddles, as the umpires and ITTF had suggested. Only a chain of unfortunate events, at the end of which there were only many losers."

[By the way, manluski, DONIC is a German company...]


So the key event was the "miscommunication" between the tournament director, Kruschel and the Japanese official, Shirakawa.   That's pretty lame and it got their golden boy to the finals, and eventual title.  I would not be surprised if the "miscommunication" was deliberate.  I remember reading someone mention  that Crisan always gave Boll trouble.  Either way Crisan was screwed!
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amateur View Drop Down
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Originally posted by TTNoobie TTNoobie wrote:


So the key event was the "miscommunication" between the tournament director, Kruschel and the Japanese official, Shirakawa.   That's pretty lame and it got their golden boy to the finals, and eventual title.  I would not be surprised if the "miscommunication" was deliberate.  I remember reading someone mention  that Crisan always gave Boll trouble.  Either way Crisan was screwed!


No, regardless of the "miscommunication" Boll would have made it to the next round:
- Crisan's paddle was illegal, both in the pre-match test and in the post-match test
- Crisan did not have a backup paddle and would have had to play with Cioti's paddle: he would have either defaulted, or (probably) lost easily.
This was Crisan's fault and not anyone else's: he did not have a legal paddle to play with, period.

The "miscommunication" only had one consequence, namely that Crisan was allowed to play with his own paddle instead of Cioti's. Boll did not obtain any advantage from the situation.

There is only one scenario in which Crisan would have advanced: if the referee had decided not to have a post-match test because they had told  Crisan before the match that his paddle was legal.
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varghesep View Drop Down
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Originally posted by TTNoobie TTNoobie wrote:



So the key event was the "miscommunication" between the tournament director, Kruschel and the Japanese official, Shirakawa.   That's pretty lame and it got their golden boy to the finals, and eventual title.  I would not be surprised if the "miscommunication" was deliberate.  I remember reading someone mention  that Crisan always gave Boll trouble.  Either way Crisan was screwed!
 
What's the language they use to communicate there? German, Japanese or something else?
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TTNoobie View Drop Down
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Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by TTNoobie TTNoobie wrote:


So the key event was the "miscommunication" between the tournament director, Kruschel and the Japanese official, Shirakawa.   That's pretty lame and it got their golden boy to the finals, and eventual title.  I would not be surprised if the "miscommunication" was deliberate.  I remember reading someone mention  that Crisan always gave Boll trouble.  Either way Crisan was screwed!


No, regardless of the "miscommunication" Boll would have made it to the next round:
- Crisan's paddle was illegal, both in the pre-match test and in the post-match test
- Crisan did not have a backup paddle and would have had to play with Cioti's paddle: he would have either defaulted, or (probably) lost easily.
This was Crisan's fault and not anyone else's: he did not have a legal paddle to play with, period.

The "miscommunication" only had one consequence, namely that Crisan was allowed to play with his own paddle instead of Cioti's. Boll did not obtain any advantage from the situation.

There is only one scenario in which Crisan would have advanced: if the referee had decided not to have a post-match test because they had told  Crisan before the match that his paddle was legal.


Did Crisan use the same paddle throughout the tournament?  If so why did they not call it illegal during his earlier matches and disqualify him?  A pass in the early stages is perfectly acceptable, but later in the rounds and involving the German golden boy in the German Open, seems a bit fishy to me.    Unless of course Crisan pulled out his "special" paddle to face Boll Tongue
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amateur View Drop Down
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Originally posted by TTNoobie TTNoobie wrote:



Did Crisan use the same paddle throughout the tournament?  If so why did they not call it illegal during his earlier matches and disqualify him?  A pass in the early stages is perfectly acceptable, but later in the rounds and involving the German golden boy in the German Open, seems a bit fishy to me.    Unless of course Crisan pulled out his "special" paddle to face Boll Tongue



I think it's safe to assume that Crisan did not leave his paddle untouched and identical throughout the tournament... I have no idea what he used when in terms of layers of glue and possibly other products, and if/when he was tested in his earlier matches. In any case, in the team event he had lost badly (2, 8, 2) to Christian Suess (currently in bad shape otherwise) two days before playing Boll. So perhaps Adi did see a need for "special" measures to be competitive with Boll, who's been playing great for a couple of months now (but I'm just speculating here).

If a specific paddle with specific preparation is not that important for Crisan's level of play, why the heck did he not have a backup??? That's reckless and unprofessional to say the least.
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Looks like we have to bring in Crisan himself to solve it Wink . A new thread with some title like "Mr.Crison, please clarify us" may help Big%20smile.
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Originally posted by varghesep varghesep wrote:

Looks like we have to bring in Crisan himself to solve it Wink . A new thread with some title like "Mr.Crison, please clarify us" may help Big%20smile.



I will buy his blade, because with his blade, I'll be able to defeat Timo Boll. Smile
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varghesep View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Cyrilix Cyrilix wrote:


I will buy his blade, because with his blade, I'll be able to defeat Timo Boll. Smile
 
... we have to bring in Timo to this forum also for that...
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amateur,

I think it's safe to assume that Crisan did not leave his paddle untouched and identical throughout the tournament... I have no idea what he used when in terms of layers of glue and possibly other products, and if/when he was tested in his earlier matches. In any case, in the team event he had lost badly (2, 8, 2) to Christian Suess (currently in bad shape otherwise) two days before playing Boll. So perhaps Adi did see a need for "special" measures to be competitive with Boll, who's been playing great for a couple of months now (but I'm just speculating here).

crisan is one of the few players that know how to beat timo and he beat him again. in sports there is always a particular player with a unique style that creates difficulty for an opponent while others might be easy.
cristian is probably the only european player with a winning record against timo. remember they both played in the chinese superlegue together so he knows a lot of the same tricks that timo uses.
 
 
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manluski View Drop Down
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amateur

the conspiracy is that timo lost and had to cheat to proceed.

i remember when i was a kid out on a stroll with my elder brother. we got involved in a fight. i thought my brother was going to get his as? kicked. however, when the fight started, i was suprised my brother had the advantage so i never tried to stop or get involved in the fight. if my brother was getting his as? kicked,  i would have stepped in and stop the fight.

this is very similar to what happened. the conspiracy was a no win situation planned to advance timo boll. what a shame.
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Really crisans fault, people come to tournaments to see them play. Crisan knew his paddle didn't pass the first time, so did he think his rubbers suddenly shrunk?
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kenneyy88
how about the measuring device? compromised. think about this and all other factors before arriving at a conclusion.
 
the bottom line is, they were allowed to play timo lost and that is final.
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Originally posted by manluski manluski wrote:

the conspiracy was a no win situation planned to advance timo boll. what a shame.


Yet another loony conspiracy theory. Sportmanship is obviously not your strength. Kindly post your drivel elsewhere. TIA.
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Those of you who protect Timo Boll so fiercely, can you explain how Timo's sponge exceeded the 4 mm limit by 0.02 mm when Tenergy 2.1 should by far not reach 4 mm.
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Looking forward to see the Video Cheung Yuk against Chen Weixing Smile
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Here is Adrian Crisan's official statement regarding the events that led to his disqualification at the German Open 2008:

 

�Dear readers,

 

I want to tell you what exactly happened in Berlin. At 9:30 in the morning, Viorel Filimon told me that my racquet is going to be tested, after which I went to check it myself. Unfortunately, the rubber was too thick and I decided to remove all the glue and assemble the racquet again. I used two extra thin layers of glue, so little that the margins of the rubber didn't even stick to the wood properly. I called Constantin Cioti who brought me his racquet from the hotel. I submitted Cioti's racquet for control and at this point I wanted to play only one point and forfeit the match in order to avoid loosing any ranking points. 

After this I went to Frank Schreiner with my racquet and told him that  it is not accepted and I will play with Cioti's racquet but only one point and then forfeit the match. He told me that is was my decision and asked me to give him my racquet.  Because he believed that it wasn't possible that the rubber was too thick he called the director of the event, Rainer Kruschell, and asked for a control of my racquet.  Then, Mr. Kruschell and the referees went to Mr.Shirakawa at Racquet Control. They came back and told me that my racquet was OK and I could play the match with it. I went to the table relaxed that my racquet is OK and I won. After the game, three referees were waiting for me and we went again to Racquet Control. Even then I wasn't worried. Unfortunately after this test the racquet was deemed illegal and that is how it has come to my disqualification.

 

Now, only a few questions remain:

Why was I allowed to play with my racquet and told that it was legal?

Why was only I disqualified when Boll's racquet didn't meet the thickness requirements either?

 

I want to thank all of you who stood by me in Berlin (our delegation, Rainer Ihle, Frank Schreiner, the other players, the 3000 spectators who applauded), Mrs. Beatrice Romanescu for the Romanian Table Tennis Federation's position on this matter, Mr. Adham Sharara for all the support he has shown, and the members of the romanian www.tenisdemasa.ro forum for showing that they care!

 

Adrian Crisan"

 

 
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Thanks for the copy of Crisans statement.
I think I can answer these questions now.
Right now Timo is the poster boy of table tennis. Its a marketeers and adminstrators dream to have a white man winning at last.
Think for a minute.
Is it conceivable that Timo Boll could be disqualified in Germany for marginally thicker rubber? Thankfully Crisans rubber was a sliver thicker than Timos.
SO what do you do?
Let them play.
Unfortunately it was not forseen that Crisan would have won so when he did, it presented another problem.
The solution is to make Timos racket within the tolerance range and place Crisans outside of that range.
Problem solved.
Now the rules as I understand them state that the thickness should be 4.0mm. I think a tolerance range will now need to be added to accomodate whatever thickness Timo is using.
The current adminstrators of table tennis are turning our sport into a farce.
Petermoo
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by crs2 crs2 wrote:

Here is Adrian Crisan's official statement regarding the events that led to his disqualification at the German Open 2008:

 

�Dear readers,

 

I want to tell you what exactly happened in Berlin. At 9:30 in the morning, Viorel Filimon told me that my racquet is going to be tested, after which I went to check it myself. Unfortunately, the rubber was too thick and I decided to remove all the glue and assemble the racquet again. I used two extra thin layers of glue, so little that the margins of the rubber didn't even stick to the wood properly. I called Constantin Cioti who brought me his racquet from the hotel. I submitted Cioti's racquet for control and at this point I wanted to play only one point and forfeit the match in order to avoid loosing any ranking points. 

After this I went to Frank Schreiner with my racquet and told him that  it is not accepted and I will play with Cioti's racquet but only one point and then forfeit the match. He told me that is was my decision and asked me to give him my racquet.  Because he believed that it wasn't possible that the rubber was too thick he called the director of the event, Rainer Kruschell, and asked for a control of my racquet.  Then, Mr. Kruschell and the referees went to Mr.Shirakawa at Racquet Control. They came back and told me that my racquet was OK and I could play the match with it. I went to the table relaxed that my racquet is OK and I won. After the game, three referees were waiting for me and we went again to Racquet Control. Even then I wasn't worried. Unfortunately after this test the racquet was deemed illegal and that is how it has come to my disqualification.

 

Now, only a few questions remain:

Why was I allowed to play with my racquet and told that it was legal?

Why was only I disqualified when Boll's racquet didn't meet the thickness requirements either?

 

I want to thank all of you who stood by me in Berlin (our delegation, Rainer Ihle, Frank Schreiner, the other players, the 3000 spectators who applauded), Mrs. Beatrice Romanescu for the Romanian Table Tennis Federation's position on this matter, Mr. Adham Sharara for all the support he has shown, and the members of the romanian www.tenisdemasa.ro forum for showing that they care!

 

Adrian Crisan"

 

 
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Originally posted by petermoo petermoo wrote:

Thanks for the copy of Crisans statement.
I think I can answer these questions now.
Right now Timo is the poster boy of table tennis. Its a marketeers and adminstrators dream to have a white man winning at last.
Think for a minute.
Is it conceivable that Timo Boll could be disqualified in Germany for marginally thicker rubber? Thankfully Crisans rubber was a sliver thicker than Timos.
SO what do you do?
Let them play.
Unfortunately it was not forseen that Crisan would have won so when he did, it presented another problem.
The solution is to make Timos racket within the tolerance range and place Crisans outside of that range.
Problem solved.
Now the rules as I understand them state that the thickness should be 4.0mm. I think a tolerance range will now need to be added to accomodate whatever thickness Timo is using.
The current adminstrators of table tennis are turning our sport into a farce.
Petermoo
 


Did anyone, anywhere, in any of ITTF documents, see mention of tolerance when measuring thickness or friction coefficient? I didn't. More than that, when we asked Adham Sharara about tolerance for error in these measurements (about 2-3 weeks ago) he professed his ignorance in the matter. I can imagine that he would at least have heard about them...

Regardless of how exactly all of this transpired, this scandal leaves a very very bad impression... I hate to say I told you so but this was one of the points I made months ago when I said that the new rules can be easily abused and will only lead to the creation of bad athmosphere in our sport. And now exactly that is beginning to happen...
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I still havent seen any answers to my question: how on earth can a 2.1 rubber exceed the 4 mm limit if no booster is supposed to be used. 1. Timo either used an extremely (improbably) thick layer of glue or 2. he gets Tenergy 2.1 in a mega-giga-special sponge version that just meets the ITTF requirement in thickness, or he used booster...
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2.1 sponge + 1.7~1.8 topsheet = 3.8 or 3.9 mm
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varghesep View Drop Down
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Points: 3111 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote varghesep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/24/2008 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by AMonteiro AMonteiro wrote:

2.1 sponge + 1.7~1.8 topsheet = 3.8 or 3.9 mm
 
You're right. When it comes to MAX, they adjust the top sheet and sponge a little to max out to 4.0 mm.
 
The inspectors give a little leverage upto 4.2 mm but not more than that.
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Points: 14602 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/24/2008 at 1:03pm
I have just checked romanian website and one of the forummers there said that he has just talked to Crisan and Adrian said that people from Donic (Crisan's sponsor) have re-checked the thicknesses of his rubbers and that they were:  Black - 3.95 mm, Red - 3.85 mm
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^SO basically Boll did lose???
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Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:

Those of you who protect Timo Boll so fiercely, can you explain how Timo's sponge exceeded the 4 mm limit by 0.02 mm when Tenergy 2.1 should by far not reach 4 mm.


I have a tough time believing that they're able to measure a sponge with an uncertainty <= 0.02mm.
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