Ma Long's technique

blahness wrote: APW46 wrote: When are you guys just gonna realise that strokes don't make the player, any world class player in the top 100 has the same firepower,  the looped drive winner is just the hammer that knocks the nail in, the best guy in the world is always than man on top form through other reasons, usually because his total touch/ service, and actually total awareness of top TT play has reached a real peak, its nothing to do with his stroke play. This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread. It's amazing how you, as an assistant moderator can be so discouraging to people who are genuinely trying to contribute to the forum. If you have so much knowledge and wisdom about TT, why not produce something helpful for other members of this forum, like producing tutorials through video/articles? I am genuinely speechless.

 I help plenty of forum members through private PM coaching, and If you actually read what I'm saying its useful, if not just ignore it. My response on this was not prompted by the initial thread starter, but by comments made later in the thread, and if you read them it makes more sense.  The world number 1 is not a better player than the world number 50 because he has better stroke play, the stroke play is set in a player far earlier than his peak and is the same stroke play he had as an unranked or low ranked junior, other factors make a top player complete, if you think that is not constructive advice, fine, some might learn from it though.

Attacking half-long balls at wide forehand

(Yellow box) Looping half-long balls is a difficult technique, it is
difficult because precise determination of the coming ball is
required as well as a correct motion. We hesitate when we are
determining whether the coming ball is short or half-long. It is hard
to do the loop even it feels like attackable. So amateur player pushes
half-long balls much more frequently. But when the level of play
improves, it is hard to stop your opponent's attack by controlling.
Therefore better players will play half-long balls more aggressively,
with various technique. Even if the ball is actually short, they can
adjust quickly.

Phsychologically, players tends to think pushing half-long ball on
backhand is reasonable; if it is on forehand, players would attack if
the ball is rather high, but they would push the ball as well; But
they are determined to attack if the ball is going wide on forehand
side. Below we analysed Ma Long's motion to find some of his
techniques about dealing half-long balls at wide forehand.

(Caption in picture 5) When moving, right foot steps a little bit
inwards

(Caption in picture 6) Right shoulder goes downwards, arm relaxs and
opens

(Caption in picture 7) Hit the ball above the table level

(Caption in picture 8) Hit upward and forward

(White box)

(Red text) Stay close to the table, reduce your swing

(Black text) Moving into the position is the first thing when returning
ball at wide forehand. But in a match we hit the ball without really
into position mostly, because we will be slower than we expected when
we move. We should try to get ourselves close to the right position.

When we are moving to wide forehand, our foot should exert a force
rather parallel to the floor. We shall not push the floor too much, as
it will make us 'jump' in the air, and we will not move sideway enough.

When moving to forehand side, right foot should step forward a little
bit, makes the body stays close to the table. In picture 4-6, Ma Long's
backswing motion was small, only his right shoulder went downwards,
his arm was relaxed, so he could find the best contact point. If his
swing was too big, or his body was away from the table, he could only
hit the ball when it was dropping, which is too late for looping. Also,
if the ball is short, even we want to push it, we won't have enough
time to adjust. Here I want to explain that we can attack short ball
as well as long ball. What we need to do is hit the ball at its peak.
Therefore it is important to stay close to the table when moving.

(Red text) Hit the ball just after its peak, more brushing, focus on
hitting the ball forward

(Black text) It is difficult to hit a ball at wide forehand at its
peak, we usually hit it just after its peak. In picture 6-7, Ma Long
swinged a little bit earlier to try to catch the ball at its peak.
Most TT-lovers are used to wait until the ball goes over the table,
therefore they can only hit the ball when it is dropping close to the
edge of the table. As the power of the coming ball is weak, they have
to generate their own power, plus they need to open the bat and brush
upwards to produce an arc, they will miss a lot; Even the ball lands,
it is a weak ball that opponents can easily counter-attack. When Ma
Long looped, his timing was earlier than normal, such that he could
hit the ball just after its peak, using the power of the coming ball.

In picture 8, Ma Long brushed hard up-forward with all his power, at
the same time his snap his forearm. There is little movement in waist
when looping half-long balls, the arm plays the main role. Faster arm
movement will increase brushing and control of the arc. Some players
only use arm movement when doing this stroke to improve consistency,
but the loop will be weaker. Amateur players should learn the feel
with arm movement first, then they can add waist and wrist movement to
increase the threat of the loop.

Ma Long brushed sufficiently when looping, and he also focus on
generating a forward force, so his loop was fast. In picture 6, Ma
Long's arm was very low. In picture 7 we can see that he lifted the
bat up vertically. In picture 8, his arm was moving horizontally.
If we only brush vertically, the arc will be too high and too long;
if we only hit horizontally, we may hit the edge of the table, and
brushing may not be sufficient. In order to increase brushing, Ma Long
added wrist movement which was shown in picture 5-9. We should look
closely to those.

Great find..
After seeing those pictures, I don't think I can emulate Long's technique at all. It is too perfect, those strokes requires perfect execution, timing and lotssss of speed and power.
I don't think I can achieve that without training it for at least a few hours every day, which is something that I am not in liberty to do..
These technique is more for the young aspiring TT athletes than me..

Things I've learnt from this article:
FH loop-kill against underspin
Even if it's a loop-kill, the follow-through has to be high. Just hit it like a slow loop, except harder.

FH loop against half-long balls
Contact the ball earlier and over the table! I've never thought of this before, going to try it!

FH counterloop
The basis of the FH counterloop is the active block against topspin(正手快带）. Ma Long contacts the ball at about 45 degrees closed, not 90 degree as i once thought. The force should go mainly forward not upwards. And focus more on brushing not hitting!

BH sidespin flick
The secret to having power in the stroke： The straightening of the back!

BH flick
Aim for the lower part of the ball. By making the follow-through more compact(making a sudden stop to the movement after hitting the ball), you have more control and more power.

blahness,you got the BH sidespin flick and BH flick totally wrong,first,yr BH sidespin flick is not a flick,its actually a over the table loop,and yr BH flick,we don't hit or brush the underneath,just that Ma Long style is different,he does that to confuse his opponent,he is actually hitting/brushing the top of the ball,if you look carefully,you'll notice the difference,if we aim for the lower part of the ball,it'll be pushing.just my 2c

ichini wrote: blahness,you got the BH sidespin flick and BH flick totally wrong,first,yr BH sidespin flick is not a flick,its actually a over the table loop,and yr BH flick,we don't hit or brush the underneath,just that Ma Long style is different,he does that to confuse his opponent,he is actually hitting/brushing the top of the ball,if you look carefully,you'll notice the difference,if we aim for the lower part of the ball,it'll be pushing.just my 2c

You're completely right...

ichini wrote: i'm sorry if i offended you blahness,but i'm just correcting you,not criticizing you

The reply above was honest, not sarcastic... :) Thanks for the correction

kenneyy88 wrote: APW46 wrote: When are you guys just gonna realise that strokes don't make the player, any world class player in the top 100 has the same firepower,  the looped drive winner is just the hammer that knocks the nail in, the best guy in the world is always than man on top form through other reasons, usually because his total touch/ service, and actually total awareness of top TT play has reached a real peak, its nothing to do with his stroke play. You cannot win on only service or touch. Strokes are very important. If you do not have any strokes, you will surely lose the game. A player with simple service and excellent strokes are much better than a player without any strokes. The player without good strokes will make errors on returning long services and the other player will be free to attack.

Kenneyy88, I think you misread. APW is stating that FOR THE TOP 100, stroke technique is already so refined that it is not the differentiator in matches.

Certainly at lower levels the quality and effectiveness of strokes may distinguish playing ability quite a bit. But the game is complex enough that it is still more about level and understanding of the game than what the mechanics look like.

At one of my clubs the player with some of the best (and most textbook) technique (1 year of drilling FH and BH topspin, ready position) is only about US900. The US1500-1600 players can't say enough good things about how solid his strokes look. And he gives several US1100 players fits. But some of the US1200-1300 players frequently just serve him off the table and prevent him from using his strokes effectively. Level makes more difference than strokes. Similarly, I recently watched a US2300 player serve (and serve return) a US1900 player off the table. No rallies required. It was irrelevant that the US1900 player had better stroke mechanics; the US2300 player simply understood and executed the game at a different level and could execute.

blahness wrote: APW46 wrote:  I help plenty of forum members through private PM coaching, and If you actually read what I'm saying its useful, if not just ignore it. My response on this was not prompted by the initial thread starter, but by comments made later in the thread, and if you read them it makes more sense.  The world number 1 is not a better player than the world number 50 because he has better stroke play, the stroke play is set in a player far earlier than his peak and is the same stroke play he had as an unranked or low ranked junior, other factors make a top player complete, if you think that is not constructive advice, fine, some might learn from it though. I don't think what you're said is constructive at all. From what you've said, we should not even bother about improving our stroke play?

That's not what he said at all. He said the Top 100 don't win by having better stroke play.

Has anyone not noticed that World TT (both the chinese and japanese version) publish stories like these every month? I've seen them with Wang Liqin, Zhang Yining, Kan Yo, Yoshida Kaii, and im sure plenty that more I haven't seen. 

blahness wrote: APW46 wrote:  I help plenty of forum members through private PM coaching, and If you actually read what I'm saying its useful, if not just ignore it. My response on this was not prompted by the initial thread starter, but by comments made later in the thread, and if you read them it makes more sense.  The world number 1 is not a better player than the world number 50 because he has better stroke play, the stroke play is set in a player far earlier than his peak and is the same stroke play he had as an unranked or low ranked junior, other factors make a top player complete, if you think that is not constructive advice, fine, some might learn from it though. I don't think what you're said is constructive at all. From what you've said, we should not even bother about improving our stroke play? If you think the stroke play of Ma Long, Wang Hao, Zhang Jike, Timo Boll or Samsonov is the same as the stroke play of WR 50-100 players, you're just sadly mistaken. The power, control and stability of their "stroke play" is just on a completely different level. Besides, this article is not just stroke play, it involves delicate skills like the BH sidespin loop, BH flick, and FH loop off half long balls. These are definitely not just "stroke" play. Anyway, this article is definitely not for those who lack basic FH/BH fundamentals.

 So, the players you mention, Ma Long etc......... how good do you think their strokes were before they made the world top 100?  Guess what, they would have been perfected and ingrained long before that. Its one thing having a technically perfect stroke, and something altogether different having the complete package required to make the top in the world.  Anything wrong with the stroke of these two juniors;

ZingyDNA wrote: ^ No no thing wrong, but TT fans like to learn from famous top players, as opposed to unknown junior players.

 Why?

APW46 wrote: ZingyDNA wrote: ^ No no thing wrong, but TT fans like to learn from famous top players, as opposed to unknown junior players.    Why?

Because they are more of fans than players? If that magazine feature Gu Yuting to demonstrate the same techniques, I bet the sales are gonna drop...

APW46 wrote: ZingyDNA wrote: APW46 wrote: ZingyDNA wrote: ^ No no thing wrong, but TT fans like to learn from famous top players, as opposed to unknown junior players.    Why? Because they are more of fans than players? If that magazine feature Gu Yuting to demonstrate the same techniques, I bet the sales are gonna drop...  Who mentioned sales? everything does not have to be commercialised, every one of the players that come to the UK from China to play TT show exellent technique, far adequate for most amature players to copy and improve, and often very aproachable for coaching at very reasonable rates. Try booking Ma long for an hours coaching.........get my drift?

No one here can afford Ma Long coaching. That's why they look at a magazine to try to learn his technique. It makes them feel like being coached by him. This is what this thread is all about...

ZingyDNA wrote: APW46 wrote: ZingyDNA wrote: APW46 wrote: ZingyDNA wrote: ^ No no thing wrong, but TT fans like to learn from famous top players, as opposed to unknown junior players.    Why? Because they are more of fans than players? If that magazine feature Gu Yuting to demonstrate the same techniques, I bet the sales are gonna drop...  Who mentioned sales? everything does not have to be commercialised, every one of the players that come to the UK from China to play TT show exellent technique, far adequate for most amature players to copy and improve, and often very aproachable for coaching at very reasonable rates. Try booking Ma long for an hours coaching.........get my drift? No one here can afford Ma Long coaching. That's why they look at a magazine to try to learn his technique. It makes them feel like being coached by him. This is what this thread is all about...

Edited by ejmaster - 01/11/2011 at 6:40pm

APW46 wrote: ZingyDNA wrote: APW46 wrote: ZingyDNA wrote: APW46 wrote: ZingyDNA wrote: ^ No no thing wrong, but TT fans like to learn from famous top players, as opposed to unknown junior players.    Why? Because they are more of fans than players? If that magazine feature Gu Yuting to demonstrate the same techniques, I bet the sales are gonna drop...  Who mentioned sales? everything does not have to be commercialised, every one of the players that come to the UK from China to play TT show exellent technique, far adequate for most amature players to copy and improve, and often very aproachable for coaching at very reasonable rates. Try booking Ma long for an hours coaching.........get my drift? No one here can afford Ma Long coaching. That's why they look at a magazine to try to learn his technique. It makes them feel like being coached by him. This is what this thread is all about...  But they are not being coached by him are they, that is why they put the emphasis on style rather than substance.

By copying a style and technique often assists in making the substance and quality of shot improve as well. If this type of documentation was readily available in the rest of the world, i would bet the general standard of the game would improve also.