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Cui Baoqun - 2500 penhold hitter

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 3:11pm
Last Tuesday, an touring party from China arrived.
I later found it that it is South China Airline, Shanghai ground staff - TT club (for employees), that travel the world to play against other "corporates"

The mens were 35yrs+, the womens were in the 25~35yr, one of them was HOT.
Apprently they landed from a 16 hour+ flight  and arrived straight at the playing venue at 18:00, didn't even go into hotel, didn't eat dinner.

At 19:30 the fun tournament began, and they were playing against national and 1 or 2 provincial team players from our side. Total of 9 singles and best out of 3 games.
The Chinese mens won 5-4, the women won 9-0. The womens, the highest point taken was 11-3.

The one Chinese man, about 40~45yr won all 3 of his game. I think he can easily be our national champion, I wonder what he would be like once he eats, sleeps, adjust his jet lag, customize to the foreign playing conditions lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

The womens, the highest point taken was 11-3.



You mean none of your women was able to make more than 3 point a game? And you said "provincial" players of your side, are you Canadian?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

The womens, the highest point taken was 11-3.



You mean none of your women was able to make more than 3 point a game? And you said "provincial" players of your side, are you Canadian?



No, not Canadian,
And yes, I meant the highest point loss was 3 points to 11 :)

Not sure what is up with this guy posting 20 post of the same thing....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 4:12pm
Ya, LGL grand slam winner is not penholder
Ma Lin Olympic champion, world cup winner is not penholder
RSM Olympic champion is not penholder and his mentor YNK Olympic champion is not penholder
Wang Hao, World champion, world cup winner is not penholder
In fact since 1988 Olympic, there was only one penholder winner, his name was JO Waldner, the rest where all Shakehand players

Anyways, coming back to reality, I think I don't need to go back before 1990 otherwise I need to list a lot of penholders that won a lot of world champ competition. It is going to be too difficult to name all the small ones.

btw Recharster, stop spamming otherwise a lot of people will report you!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by recharster recharster wrote:

hehe,you are right,but i just think the penholder player just can sever, can not play table tennis

whoever can make the last return win the pointLOL, who cares can u play tt or not.
BTW, I just wonder why white or close to white t-shirt is allowed when the game ball is white.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotdt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2012 at 9:10pm
I've found that you can't really judge the level of the player just by watching videos. A player can rally really well with beautiful form that resembles that of Ma Long's... but "only" be 2200. Whereas another player can look like a 1200 newbie, but actually play at 2400 level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 12:51am
Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

I've found that you can't really judge the level of the player just by watching videos. A player can rally really well with beautiful form that resembles that of Ma Long's... but "only" be 2200. Whereas another player can look like a 1200 newbie, but actually play at 2400 level.

Even though I agree to some extent, I think it has more to do with the people who you generally see making guesses of judgement. If a 2400 level player were watching someones match, he'd be able to tell if they were at his level or not. This is only generally so accurate because 95% of the people on this forum (the ones who usually make the judgement calls) are under a 2000 level of play. Probably under an 1800 level of play even, and cannot recognize the types of play, awareness, and decision making/shot selection etc etc etc... that it takes to be at a level and instead get caught up in how good someone's strokes are or how fast they are moving around. I've been caught dead wrong assuming someone knows what they are talking about toooooo many times. Just because someone speaks like they know what they are talking about over the internet doesn't make it true. Pushblocker was a really good example because a lot of people failed to recognize his game, and looked at his physical application. He has the adjustment and gameplay to play at that level, but he isn't a physical player so a lot of people didn't understand at first (probably includes me) how he could be rated so high. "I could beat him easily" 

so I think it just goes more along with the fact that the people usually making judgement calls are at too low a level to understand, or at least recognize what is going on in a video. Spotting talent is a talent in itself. If you actually know what you're looking at, I don't think this is an issue at all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 9:24am
Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

I've found that you can't really judge the level of the player just by watching videos. A player can rally really well with beautiful form that resembles that of Ma Long's... but "only" be 2200. Whereas another player can look like a 1200 newbie, but actually play at 2400 level.
I beg to differ cotdt.  If you know the level of the players he is playing in the video and you see how he or she performs against them you can make a pretty good educated guess as to their playing level.  And as far as a player that looks like a 1200 newbie, but actually plays at 2400 level...there is no way a 2400 player might look like a 1200 newbie.  Come on cotdt...I get we can't always estimate someone's rating accurately by watching them play in a video but there is no way we would be off that much.  We might think a 2400 player only looks like a 2200 player, but we wouldn't be off any more than that. 
I watched several of his videos and saw the one where he beat Barney Reed, and there is no way watching him you would think he's < 2400.  I watched some of his other videos where he also beat some 2400 players so you can pretty much tell he's a 2450+ player.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 10:49am
If one does not know the playing level (usatt's rating) of either player in the video, how far off one's estimate can be?
 
Within 100, 200, 300 rating points?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 11:07am
How do you rank the players in this video against Cui Baoqun?
 
The older player (purple shirt) uses long-pips (red) and inverted (black).
The younger player (yellow shirt) uses inverted on both sides.
 
1.  Baoqun is better than both of them.
2.  Baoqun falls in-between.
3.  Baoqun is ranked last. (Means both of them are better than Baoqun). 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khmd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 11:55am
yellow one, who is not a professional, won some non-professional competition in "southern" part, based on footnote of some other videos posted in China's ping-pong forum.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 12:01pm
Hmmm..it's pretty tough to estimate their level just from this 1 match.  My point earlier was that any of us would easily know the difference between a 1200 player and a 2400 player, but we could be off by a couple 100 pts, especially if we don't know the level of any of the players they are playing.  When you watch Baoqun playing Barney and DJ alto you know those guys are definitely above 2400 and that Baoqun is at their level. 
Watching these 2 players though, it's kind of hard to tell if they would be as good.  The younger guy in the yellow does not look nearly as strong as Baoqun.  The older guy in the purple doesn't look quite as strong either, but he does look pretty tough.  I would say Baoqun would beat either one of them.  It is kind of hard to estimate their rating though since I don't know either of them, so I guess you could be off 200 - 300 pts when watching 2 unknown players, especially if one of them has a tricky style with LP.  Just watching these 2 play I could see either of them being around 2200 give or take 150 pts. 
OK...tell us what their level is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by khmd khmd wrote:

yellow one, who is not a professional, won some non-professional competition in "southern" part, based on footnote of some other videos posted in China's ping-pong forum.



========================================
 
(For khmd) Also based on the comment section of the video:
The yellow shirt player came from Hainan Provincial Team.
 
AcudaDave said: "OK...tell us what their level is."
My answer:  "I don't know their level, I have no idea. I do have an opinion but will let you know later."
----------------------------------------
 
AcudaDave ranked Cui Baoqun to be the #1 of these 3 players.
 
Do any other folks here care to rank them?
To get more opinion here, you can just rank them without writing long post to justify it.


Edited by skip3119 - 05/03/2012 at 12:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotdt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

I've found that you can't really judge the level of the player just by watching videos. A player can rally really well with beautiful form that resembles that of Ma Long's... but "only" be 2200. Whereas another player can look like a 1200 newbie, but actually play at 2400 level.
I beg to differ cotdt.  If you know the level of the players he is playing in the video and you see how he or she performs against them you can make a pretty good educated guess as to their playing level.  And as far as a player that looks like a 1200 newbie, but actually plays at 2400 level...there is no way a 2400 player might look like a 1200 newbie.  Come on cotdt...I get we can't always estimate someone's rating accurately by watching them play in a video but there is no way we would be off that much.  We might think a 2400 player only looks like a 2200 player, but we wouldn't be off any more than that. 
I watched several of his videos and saw the one where he beat Barney Reed, and there is no way watching him you would think he's < 2400.  I watched some of his other videos where he also beat some 2400 players so you can pretty much tell he's a 2450+ player.  


I was watching pushblocker and thought he would only be rated 1600 until I saw his actual rating. It actually shouldn't have surprised me because I play against players with similar style as him (although using illegal rubbers) and they look like newbies but are actually very tough to beat. The game is slower but so much variation and changes in pace, very choppy and tricky to play.

If you watch the 2000 Olympics, LGL made Rospkoff look like a newbie. He couldn't return most of LGL's serves properly and smashed almost every ball off the table. It was so bad you wondered why he was even playing in the Olympics! In the 2004 Olympics, Waldner made Timo Boll look like he didn't belong playing in the Olympics either. Got 3rd balled by Waldner like crazy with his poor serve returns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 12:54pm
good post skip.  I'm curious to see how other forum members would rank them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 1:03pm
The older guy is a well-known LPs user in China (amateur circle, of course). I watched a vid of match between him and Li Zhi Ming, who's also a LPs user and has a USATT rating. So I more or less know his level by match result Smile

AcudaDave, I can tell you about that by PM as I don't wanna spoil it here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 1:04pm
yeah...PM me Zingy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 2:03pm
My assessment of the 2 players in the video:
 
 
I think these two players are way above Cui Baoqun by more than one level.
 
 
So far AcudaDave ranked Cui Baoqun as #1, and I ranked him as #3.
 
 
What is your opinion?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 3:04pm
Can any Chinese forum reader here "search and find" the background information about these 3  Chinese players?  (From videos or comment sections or any other source.)
 
黄建疆, 林明河, &  Cui Baoqun.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 3:09pm
Cui was a top provincial player in China 20 years ago, a solid 2800-level player.  To give you an idea, he was better than Gao Jun during their prime playing the same style... He coaches in China for the past ten years and rarely played matches.  He's just having fun visiting the U.S. for the past few months and did not plan to play table tennis at all... We had to buy a complete setup for him in the States, when his fingers started to itch after seeing us competing at Gao Jun's club and LATTA. 





Edited by roundrobin - 05/03/2012 at 3:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Ya, LGL grand slam winner is not penholder
Ma Lin Olympic champion, world cup winner is not penholder
RSM Olympic champion is not penholder and his mentor YNK Olympic champion is not penholder
Wang Hao, World champion, world cup winner is not penholder
In fact since 1988 Olympic, there was only one penholder winner, his name was JO Waldner, the rest where all Shakehand players

Anyways, coming back to reality, I think I don't need to go back before 1990 otherwise I need to list a lot of penholders that won a lot of world champ competition. It is going to be too difficult to name all the small ones.

btw Recharster, stop spamming otherwise a lot of people will report you!




Are you saying...since I am not penholder I can become a champion?  Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 3:28pm
They both don't look that consistent to be 2800 level players.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tsanyc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

he is really good!
SP players don't like loopers :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 3:31pm
thanks for the update roundrobin.  wow...a 2800 player 20 years ago, rarely plays matches, they had to buy a setup for him, and he goes out and beats Barney Reed, and some other 2400 - 2500+ players...with pips out no less.  Just shows you how far behind US is when one of our top younger players loses to an older coach that rarely plays matches anymore.  It also shows that you can still play pretty well with pips out if you know how to use them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotdt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 3:39pm
Holy crap... 2800+ player 20 years ago... that means he was just a notch below the level of LGL and the top international players of that era. I wonder if LGL still played, what level he would be. I bet people who don't know who LGL is, would say he plays like a beginner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

They both don't look that consistent to be 2800 level players.  




Of course they're no where close to pro level. Anyway, skip wanted me to post the vid of Huang Jian Jiang (the older guy in his vid) vs. Li Zhi Ming, so here's the link:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ0ODg4NTA0.html

I thought the vid was undated but it's actually dated in 2011, when Li's rating dropped below 2300 most of the time. So I'd say Huang would be in the 2200s, tops.


Edited by ZingyDNA - 05/03/2012 at 3:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 4:36pm

黄建疆 is not as good as Cui Baoqun.  

Based on the youtube a recent game of Cui

Cui is no longer a 2800 player.  
But it is pretty obvious to me Cui has been through some pretty intense training in the past. Just footwork alone Cui is way past Huang.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 4:59pm
zingyDNA:
 
Thanks for the LP video with two LP masters against one another.
 
黄建疆, Huang Jian Jiang, has been teaching on how to play LP in China for years, and he has video lessons on the web.  Also learned on the web that 黄建疆 won a national tournament in China for players over 40 years old a few years ago.  Sure surprised that he lost to Li Zhi-Ming, another LP player.
 
Thank you very much,
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2012 at 6:03pm
I would personally put Cui above the other two based on what I have seen of him. I would like to see Huang against a stronger looping player though. The guy in the yellow isn't the same caliber of player as some of the looping players Cui has beaten on youtube imo. I could be wrong since I'm nowhere near that level, but from what I can tell anyway. A good one to base off of is (even though Cui lost) is this one- 

Xia Jiwei vs Cui Baoqun 

Cui does really well in this match from what I remember, even though he loses. And Xia Jiwei is a higher standard of play than the player in yellow from the other video. 

this is a good discussion. :) 
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