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beginners with expensive, overly fast equipment |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Posted: 04/23/2014 at 5:11pm |
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Disclaimer: The examples were meant to be fictitious - any resemblance to actual events or persons is purely accidental.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Reinecke
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1054 |
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This aimed at me? I'm not one to look off constructive criticism. However I do have a consistent stroke, many people I play compliment me on it. Especially my backhand. I could understand better microadjustments to my stroke though, but I also haven't played in several years and this will come back with time. I have developed a high comfort level with my current setup, and I think changing to anything else would be detrimental to my game.
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Mizutani Jun ST
Tenergy 64 Tenergy 64 |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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The better your strokes, the more reliably you can evaluate the effect of equipment on it. It's easy to imagine what an MJ with T64 on both sides is doing for your shots, but if you don't have a consistent stroke and understand the real impact of microadjustments to it, you can believe the speed is good or bad for your overall play without having a clue. The lower your level, the harder it is to even know how the equipment is impacting your stroke or the more complicated question of your overall game.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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in2spin
Silver Member Joined: 12/09/2008 Status: Offline Points: 988 |
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i think though, a simplistic approach with 'beginners' is:
the faster, stronger, spinnier, stiffer, highest, lowest - whatever "maxed" out terminology will be best for their game whereas, with veteran players - the search is for tinkering and tailoring (and spending) for the best combination of tendencies/qualities the equipment can do for their game - not always necessarily 'maxed' out equipment :)
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DistantStar
Super Member Joined: 07/19/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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I guess I'm an offender to this... Not a beginner, but not good enough to be playing my setup according to some elitist here. To add insult to the injury, I recommended fast spiny set up to another player, who was better than me, but used a slower setup. This switch brought him down to my level HAHAHA. What an effective way for me to beat him
But guess what? Despite that fact, he loved his new set up and never looked back!!! You see, we are never going to make a living playing TT. For some, it's all about fun and enjoyment. Edited by DistantStar - 04/23/2014 at 11:50am |
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Nittaku Acoustic
Xiom Sigma Euro 2.0 Tibhar Genius Sound 2.0 |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Doreamon, I agree with most of what you have written. Players who refuse to warm up reasonably can be very annoying. As I have gotten better, what I can tolerate during a warm up has expanded, but there is nothing I hate more than someone who won't produce some kind of rhythm to the warm-up. However, the OP never said he spoke to the 1200. And relooping a 1200 attack on a regular serve is not as hard as it sounds if you are 2000+ and know where the ball is going. What is not clear is whether the 1200 was told that 1200 could choose a different warmup routine if 1200 asked. I was a tournament and during a break, a SP-LP combo player asked me to warm up during the break. He was rated about 1500 or so on paper (I think he could have upset the right customer about 200 pts above him if he found that customer). I agreed. He then started blocking and smashing the ball randomly all over the table. I simply asked him what he was trying to work on (I might have been more patient during a club match, but while I like spinning to pips anytime, I am not going to ruin my timing during a tournament). He apologized and started to go into a more traditional crosscourt pattern with open play on mishits, saying that people almost never agree to warm up with him because he uses pips so he is not used to it. He just changed from inverted so I didn't fully accept this explanation in my head, but at least, he started a pattern. I didn't loop softly, but he didn't need to hold back on his hits and blocks as long as they followed the pattern. I don't think experienced players should feed newbies nice easy balls during a warm-up (as opposed to lesson or tutorial). We should feed them balls that are consistent with our warm up routine and which have a consistent pattern to the opponent. If someone is lower rated and can't handle my hitting tempo, which is mostly a reflection of their pace, I'm not going to ruin my technique anymore to accommodate them (that's what I mean by Cobra Kai TT) unless they are paying me to coach, in which case I will do mostly multi-ball. Higher rated players don't ruin their strokes to accommodate me during warm-ups.
Edited by NextLevel - 04/23/2014 at 6:02am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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doraemon
Gold Member Joined: 05/14/2007 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1738 |
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Dear NextLevel,
I agree with you that if the opponent is a newbie, then we have to explain to them about consistency and be patient while they are trying to be consistent. Of course, we feed him/her nice easy ball. The problem is with these 2 types of players: 1. A good player who knows that he has to be consistent but smashing every ball. I experienced that against an old player with LP. Every time I feed ball to his FH, he smashes as hard as he can. 2. A newbie that was already told to be consistent, and yet keep smashing the ball every time we feed nice ball. I think this is the case that OP experienced. |
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Blade : Just wood
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Doreamon, So the question of whether OP actually spoke to the 1200 as opposed to just make the 1200 think that warming up harder against the OP was hard because the OP could warm up harder than the 1200 is important. Assiduous is simply saying more directly what I said earlier that many people who warm up poorly should be talked to before being treated like jerks. You can take the OP's approach as well, but do it knowing that you might be promoting the problem, not solving it. On the other hand, practicing killing weaker balls consistently is important because the aggressive mindset is important when facing higher rated players - the OP can do that but only ideally if it is within his hitting pace and for a 1200 vs 2100+, it usually is. It's one of the reasons why people mess up on the "Guess the Rating" competitions. They identify many theoretically weaker balls that the opponent should be eating up, but people who don't kill weaker balls on a consistent basis don't eat those balls up!
Edited by NextLevel - 04/23/2014 at 3:54am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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doraemon
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It's not about the equipment. It is the way the opponent smash all balls during warm up. The idea of warm up is to put the ball so that you can hit back nicely and vice versa. So do you like to warm up with somebody who kill / smash every ball you feed him?? Edited by doraemon - 04/23/2014 at 1:36am |
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Blade : Just wood
FH : black rubber BH : red rubber |
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Tassie52
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Edited by Tassie52 - 04/22/2014 at 11:57pm |
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Toprank
Super Member Joined: 02/05/2011 Location: Ventura CA Status: Offline Points: 481 |
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Seems like there are 3 topics here- If I encounter a player that likes to hit winners (worse, at my level or above my level) during practice I usually will try to return the best I can for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes of me chasing the ball I just jump to, "it looks like you're ready let's play". Only a couple of times has someone said no. If the person is significantly below my level plays a match with me, I'll usually will ask do you want me to give my best effort or do you want me to take it easy. I get about half that say give me your best and the other half says you can take it easy. So I will try to fulfill their wishes.
Edited by Toprank - 04/22/2014 at 11:29pm |
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CURRENT BLADE- Ross Leidy White Lightning
FH- Haifu Blue Whale II BH- Xiom Vega Europe |
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assiduous
Platinum Member Joined: 05/01/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2521 |
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Of course. Innershield ZLF is a BTY synthetic blade. Slow like a turtle, soft like cotton. And the op sounds obnoxious to me. You must think you are really cool, you are the boss, for 'showing' that noob and 'teaching him a lesson'. Why didn't u just tell him friendly that YOU THINK his paddle is too fast? Fool..
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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assiduous
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Do you even know how to loop? You make it sound like you make a choice but I have a feeling your game is much like pushblocker anyway.
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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BH-Man
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Koreans seem to be very brand oriented wanting the top end stuff, whether it is TT equipment or accessories. They spare almost no expense, and make up for it by stretching the use of their rubber to one year.
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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yogi_bear
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it's not about the price. there are a lot of pricey equipment that are not super fast. it's about the speed and control of the equipment
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boaspirit
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haha that was funny how he keep switching rackets. i think there's nothing wrong with using fast equipment when your starting out its just that it important to keep good technique. but it seem like this guy did not know how to use his equipment when i started getting serious i use fast equipment too but i was determined to use good technique and practice every day on my strokes. this guy one the other hand only wanted to show off lol serves him right |
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aroonkl
Silver Member Joined: 07/08/2011 Status: Offline Points: 748 |
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When I play 1100 player, I am 1400.
When I play 1600 player, I am 1900. I don't think a lot higher level players kill lower players with all over loops and feel fun. They mostly let lower players exploit things, play to have fun but they still control the point. But when there is a big air-head shows arrogant, and not respect their lot higher level skill. I think they should show the different in level. I think TT is nice and humble already. What will happen if a beginner level talks trash, goes to the high level guys, acts cocky and asks for sparring match. ========================================== Look, TT is a niche sport in US and it does not help when some folks are hell bent on 'teaching a lesson' every chance they get. ==========================================
Edited by aroonkl - 04/22/2014 at 2:16am |
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rusttt
Super Member Joined: 03/16/2014 Location: Danbury, CT Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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+1000! Edited by rusttt - 04/21/2014 at 10:23pm |
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1306 |
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That was an 'interesting' thread - and it seems like it has very little to do with the cost of equipment. I have a couple of comments (I am 1200, by the way, one of the unwashed peasants, so to speak).
1. What someone paid for their equipment is really none of my business. They most likely overpaid, but so does 80% of this forum, folks with EJ affliction in particular. May be they got bad advice, may be they don't consider it expensive, who cares - not your money. 2. Not sure what's up with 'not my equal' and 'must teach a lesson' - this attitude rubs me the wrong way. You are both TT players and paying customers. 3. OP somehow ends up playing with the offender for an hour or so - how come? In my club if there are people waiting, you play the game and get it over with - so it's 20 min suffering at most if you are so mismatched in level. If he was the only partner there - well, I'm sorry, but you kind of need him then, no? 4. It sounded from the reference to 'local experts' that offender was at his home club and you were a guest? OK, so they don't have very high level players there and their 'house rules' or etiquette are not up to your standard. Not a big deal in the end, since it sounds you won't enjoy playing there. Look, TT is a niche sport in US and it does not help when some folks are hell bent on 'teaching a lesson' every chance they get. |
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aroonkl
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debraj, You got wrong impression here. Newbies' expensive gear does not bother good players much. It is the attitude toward playing. In this case 3 things happened. Read OP's opening thread. == ================ 1. the guy tried to smash from the get-go (a big no-no for me) 2. he approached me "let's play" with a smug confidence as if he were equal to me just bc he could smash back and forth with U1600, their "local experts" (sigh, must teach a lesson) 3. by saying he needs to switch his racket after missing, he implies it's the equipment and not the difference in our level ==================
Edited by aroonkl - 04/21/2014 at 6:51pm |
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popperlocker
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Wow, very friendly, productive, and intelligent method. Kind of like wax on, wax off, but better. |
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debraj
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if we get angry or sarcastic to see beginners with expensive equipment, its our problem, not theirs.
we need to control our superciliousness, and if we think the equipment is faster than his/her ability, we can politely advise. if the equipment is expensive but still helps them ... like tenergy fx 2.0 both sides of a Timo Boll AL .... then we don't need to get upset and let them play. |
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in2spin
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i like the idea of whoever misses picks up the ball, because the person then has to walk all the way behind me, and return to his side before we can start hitting again you'd think they'd get tired of that, after a while..... :)
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1dennistt
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Tale of two players with fast equipment from a few years back. Both choose a Gergley carbon blade with Bryce on both sides (remember this was a while back). One listened to his coaches, and gradually developed the touch and strokes to use his chosen combo, and advanced fairly rapidly in the sport.
The other player has proven to be less successful. He doesn't take advice easily (from anyone), and is still stuck in beginner mode after all these years. Still smacks every ball like he did when he first started playing, and is always asking why he misses so many shots. The answer is always the same, get a coach, practice proper technique, and practice some more. His response is the same also, "I already know how to do it, just tell me why I miss so much!" This second type player is the one that incites the venom you hear in the posts. There are some players you just can't help they already "know it all," and are looking for the "magic" that will make them better players.
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Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)
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suds79
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Yep agreed. If you ever get the chance to warm up with Nathan or Quan, they're excellent warm-up partners for getting in a groove quickly.
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Rich215
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title of this thread should have "fast equipment" in it.
There are lots of expensive blades and rubbers that are ALL to DEF speeds. But I understand what the OP is saying.....usually some beginners that buy expensive stuff .....they pick carbon blades and Tenergys or Tensors they cant handle. And its not that they have or use them...its that they will not understand that they cant handle it....lol Maybe when you see them....or hit with them, tell them "Ok...move about 12 feet back off the table....that is where that setup will work for you and not any closer" haaaaaaaaaa |
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frogger
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+1! Agree some want to "warm up" by blasting every ball at max not thinking about the next shot or placement. It's frustrating to keep telling them to slow it down a notch and concentrate on consistency not power. Power will always be there when the opportunity arises. |
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Wood Paddle
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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I like this idea In fact - I can offer a suggestion - when a person misses the table - we switch sides - so the person who hit the shot can go collect the ball and be on the side closest to the ball!
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Butterfly MPS
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jrscatman
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I had a similar encounter - since the player in question was good friend - I asked about this behaviour. I thought his answer might be useful for everyone to understand their side He says to me. "At my age, it's very rare in matches I would get any chance to hit balls like that - so every time an opportunity presents itself - I'm gonna take it - practice or not!" So now when we practice, I just try to set him up for some smashes - practice my retrieval skills. It's not too bad since I like playing defensive style.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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puppy412
Silver Member Joined: 03/25/2013 Location: houston Status: Offline Points: 686 |
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actually now that I think of it, there are a couple of guys in my club that use super beginner stuff, like premades with no spin at all. it's much harder to handle spin or make any kind of shot with this than a gergely with 2 tenergies. they would do much better if they used an equipment that helps them more. also even the fastest equipment dies down a lot after a couple months, almost to the point of old srivers or mark v. so yeah, I'd totally give a schlager carbon + two tenergies to a beginner Edited by puppy412 - 04/21/2014 at 1:07pm |
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