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is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers? |
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roundrobin 
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 Posted: 09/16/2017 at 8:13pm |
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It's quite amazing that you are still willfully confusing breaking a sport rule that ITTF turned a blind eye to for the past five years with "cheating". Is breaking any rule in sports automatically considered cheating to you? Have you ever served illegally, willfully or not? And so that you know, we are talking about the rule about boosters here, where Adham has said clearly if it's part of the finishing process of rubber manufacturering then it is legal. Because of this, the CNT can't even break this stupid rule even if they want to, is that clear? THEY ARE SPONSORED BY THE RUBBER MAKERS.
This thread is pure nonsense because Chinese rubbers need boosters to be considered a finished product. What's so hard to understand? The CNT always used a finished product that ITTF says it's perfectly legal. Stop the Chinese bashing please. We all know most Japanese rubbers are heavily boosted as well. Let Berndt do the work bashing the Chinese. Edited by roundrobin - 09/16/2017 at 8:19pm |
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Purett
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 8:25pm |
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they boost and they don't get caught so do a lot of players
take the first 500 spots they all boost
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rating solid 1000
moving up to 1001 |
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 8:34pm |
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If all are cheaters of a rule then by logic none are cheaters of said rule, because cheating by legal definition requires a victim. Some people here are still confusing rule-breaking with cheating. They are not the same. |
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DTopSpirit
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 9:00pm |
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Yes, I'm a willful type of person.  Nothing hard to understand about Chinese rubbers needing boosters to be a finished product. That can be done at the factory under the current rules, provided it's under the output limits. That's not hard to understand. Adham's opinion isn't the rules. Blind eyes or not aren't either. Not following you on the Chinese bashing. You're the one mentioning Ma Long, not me. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone specifically. Berndt can do what he likes. But don't confuse him with me. We don't hold the same opinions about everything to do with table tennis. I've said my piece. I think that if you intentionally break the rules in any sport, you are a cheat. That's my position. Could be a big cheat or a small cheat, but still a cheat. You think otherwise. Fine. You also seem to think that whether I've ever cheated at sports or anything in life is somehow relevant to deciding what is a cheat. Does it make me a hypocrite to have crossed the street against traffic signs while saying players who boost are cheaters. If so, I can live with that, and they still are. I do agree that if the ITTF says players boosting their own rackets is perfectly legal, then that should be that. So if the ITTF say that players boosting rubbers themselves is OK, no problem. Because then no rules are being broken, so how can anybody be cheating? But do the ITTF rules actually say that? If they do, I have no problem in revising my position to say that players boosting the rackets themselves are not cheating. And if so, where? So I know what to point to in future discussions with local players. But if the rules don't say that, then they are cheating.  I've said all I have to say, I don't think I have any more worthy insights on the topic. You are welcome to have the last word on this one. But thanks for the conversation.
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bbkon
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 9:21pm |
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boll is also sponsored by the rubber maker
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 9:41pm |
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I am sorry Greg, but I do need to repeat the fact that "cheating" requires a victim of the crime. Who is the victim when ALL pros use the best tuned/boosted rubbers anyway they can get them, and ITTF (the ultimate authority in this matter) let them do it? Do not automatically equate "breaking a rule" that ITTF knows is unenforceable and does not care to "cheating". They are not the same, because there is no victim.
If you still don't get this point, then indeed, there's nothing more to discuss. Edited by roundrobin - 09/16/2017 at 9:48pm |
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penholderxxx
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 9:46pm |
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The victim is the opponent and the sport, dude.
penholderxxx
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Iloveplayingtabletennis
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 9:50pm |
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Not when all your opponents use tuned/boosted rubber also, dude. And "sport" is not a person in the court of law.
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 9:51pm |
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Furthermore, the rule does not apply to you, unless you are an ITTF tour player.
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 10:01pm |
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Greg, apparently you are not familiar with case law definition in the United States. Opinion and lack of enforcement is everything in this case.
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Fulanodetal
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 10:01pm |
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Those accusing the Chinese players of boosting, please provide actual evidence. Second hand anecdotal accounts amount to rumours and that is not enough.
"International Table Tennis Federation (ITTF) President Thomas Weikert Thursday refuted fellow German Timo Boll's accusations that most of players are "doping" their rubbers in competitions.
"The ITTF has comprehensive racket testing procedures in place to ensure that everyone is on a level playing field," Weikert told Xinhua by phone." The accusation that the chinese players win bc of boosting is laughable. They win because they are well trained. They win because they are fully committed to the sport. For those who think that boosting a rubber will guarantee a win, you don't know what you are talking about. Try it for yourself. You can use paraffin oil on a old rubber. And see how many games you will automatically win. I did try it. I noticed very little difference. The sponge was softer (I prefer a harder sponge). The balls kicked a little bit more (I prefer the rubber not too fast) . The improvement on spin was negligible. And so I ended my experimenting with boosting. Boosting does not give you magic powers like Popeye gets from spinach. So....where is the evidence? FdT |
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chop4ever
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 10:14pm |
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There is no real "pro", "prov" or "NT" H3 in the market.
Falco is not a booster |
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berndt_mann
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 10:21pm |
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(Fulanodetal)
So....where is the evidence? schen wrote: The Chinese national team primarily boost with Haifu SanDing Oil (the thin/runny dark brown oil with little particles in it and comes in the haifu bottle with a yellow cap with brush attached). Dianchi (version 1 - pale yellow and
runny in a large bottle with some particles - fails miniRAE test and I
think was discontinued, and version 2 - same pale yellow but slightly
thicker than SanDing with no particles and comes in the smaller bottle
with brush in cap) Seamoon (thickest and sticky, brown, no particles) and KaiLin (similar consistency to Dianchi, but more transparent, no particles) are
more popular among the provincial players because the SanDing oil
hasn't been publicly available for some time now and only CNT members
can readily obtain them. Some provincial players have had SanDing from
before it was taken off the market, or through connections to Haifu or
CNT members. KaiLin oil has become increasingly hard to obtain as well,
and is the most expensive (and in my opinion the most effective)
booster still on the Chinese market. This
information is from my club's coaching staff, a retired women's CNT
member and a handful retired Chinese provincial team members. (This as of 2014--B.Mann) 2. http://ttnpp.com/store/booster/527-dianchi-oil-booster-2085639347-2085639536-27833-34. 3. http://www.saletabletennis.com/?product_tag=ma-long Booster increases the overall spin and speed characteristics of the
table tennis rubber and creates very pleasant ball touch. According to
our information boosters are used by all top players in the world. 4. Dianchi Oil Booster is one of the best table tennis tuners which have ever been produced.
It is famous for its quality and long lasting effect. A lot of top table tennis players (including Ma Long and Timo Boll) use this table tennis booster. http://www.pingpong777.com/booster-dlya-nastolnogo-tennisa.html?language=En Edited by berndt_mann - 09/16/2017 at 10:39pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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penholderxxx
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 10:32pm |
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'Not when all your opponents use tuned/boosted rubber also, dude. And "sport" is not a person in the court of law.' - roundrobin
Well, its good enough to have Boll and MJ being victims ( and others ) for the point to stand.....and its good enough that there are 'concerned individuals' like members of this forum who feel that all tt players should abide with the established ITTF rules governing the sport; that boosting of rubbers ( legal if its done by manufacturers, illegal if done by individuals )provide that 10 ( or more ) per cent advantage. To resolve this, I vote that boosting of rubbers by players be allowed; particularly so, when manufacturers are alleged to be doing it , and on top of that are also adding whatever secret recipes into the base rubber materials to make the rubber high tensions, special tensions, extra high speed extra durable etc etc. And since when did anyone refer to ' the court of law '.  Whose law ? 'Furthermore, the rule does not apply to you, unless you are an ITTF tour player.' - roundrobin Are you sure, do you wish to take one moment to reflect and maybe make some 'adjustments' to what you have just said ? penholderxxx |
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Iloveplayingtabletennis
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Baal
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 10:51pm |
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Penholder, not only does Evolution MX-P stink of boostsr, it can set off a VOC detecting machine if new sheets are not aired out for a day or two before testing. And yet if I put the same stuff on my rubber it is against the rules.
I like Timo a lot, but I caution people that Lance Armstrong claimed to be clean for years. Weikert's comment was strange since he is denying what we all know. Since he hates Sharara, will he end this very poor rule that came in during the Sharara era? No sign of it yet, but he should. |
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 10:57pm |
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You don't need to sign your nom de plume at the end of every post, penholderxxx. It says right there on top left of your every post in big bold letters. :)
Funny that you mentioned Mizutani, a player the CNT like to call a loud whiner (well most CNT don't like Japanese for other reasons anyway). He sure whined a lot and got him nowhere. The truth is, the CNT members actually envied the fact that Mizutani and Boll are sponsored by Butterfly, as most of them are barred from this privilege (Butterfly is known to make the best blades and rubbers in the world, a fact openly admitted by the CNT). The Chinese tuned/boosted H3 variants are actually inferior products to Tenergy, but for DHS the Chinese market is simply too enormous to give up sponsoring the CNT. I have talked with many ex-CNT members and coaches who all stated they will still dominate the world (perhaps even more easily) if everyone is forced to use Viscaria and Tenergy. Do you think they are lying? Boosters mean nothing in their success. A person has to be extremely naive and ignorant to believe otherwise. As to the player-booster rule, since it is unenforceable, no player can be found of breaking it; therefore no player can break it. As a result, no player can "cheat" this law. Does this logic make sense to you? This is exactly how a court in the United States (I don't know about Malaysia or Australia) will interpret it: An unenforceable law is a law that does not exist in practice, therefore no one can break it or "cheat" from it. (Before you post a retort, go ask a lawyer first.) Edited by roundrobin - 09/16/2017 at 10:58pm |
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Baal
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:01pm |
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There is a strange logic when Weikert says that machines designed to detect speed glue but which can't detect boosters always fail to detect boosters and therefore nobody boosts.
They should just end this dumb rule. Sharara tried to claim boosters represented a health risk (like speed glue) but that was laughable. |
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:05pm |
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There is a strange logic when Weikert says that machines designed to detect speed glue but which can't detect boosters always fail to detect boosters and therefore nobody boosts.
Edited by roundrobin - 09/16/2017 at 11:30pm |
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:07pm |
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This rule won't ever end because of economic reasons. Without it there won't be enough new stream of amateur buyers for $70 "high-tech" rubbers.
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DTopSpirit
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:08pm |
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I still have nothing more to say myself about boosting in table tennis, but at what point did you get elected as being the definer of what is cheating? When did the standard definition change so that if both players in a sporting match are cheating, it suddenly doesn't count? Aren't they both just cheats? Otherwise you have the farcical situation when they play someone else who boosts, they aren't a cheat, but when they play someone who doesn't, they are? How can that be right? And regards US case law, so what? When did US case law suddenly become the arbiter of whether breaking the rules is cheating or not? Again, simply point me to the rule that says players boosting their own rubber is legal. If you can do that, I'm wrong and will admit it. If there is no rule, then you are simply using various other rationales to justify cheating. And maybe they do. But it is still cheating. It doesn't change what cheating actually is, just because you and others think it is justified. I'm not about to see three lights and call it four, no matter how much spin you put on it. I will equate "breaking a rule" that the ITTF knows is unenforceable and does not care to to cheating. Because it still is. TLDR; I'm talking about what cheating actually is. I don't care why it is OK. I think you are arguing in why it is OK (I could be wrong). So perhaps we are arguing about two different things.
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:11pm |
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No Greg, I am pointing out that breaking an unenforceable rule (such as boosting) is not cheating. It is simply breaking an unenforceable rule. You do not understand.
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:16pm |
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Again, simply point me to the rule that says players boosting their own rubber is legal. If you can do that, I'm wrong and will admit it.
On the flip side, has anyone been convicted of personally boosting their own rubber? In the U.S. a law is useless without precedent, because it is unenforceable. I know, you may argue "who cares about the U.S. law interpretation, etc." but then why should I care about Australian or ITTF law interpretation, when you are not even sure yourself? |
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Baal
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:18pm |
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By the way somewhere way upthread somebody quoted something Larry Hodges said about speed glues, which was that TT speed glues worked better than glues for tire repair. That is in fact NOT true. TT speed glues circa 2000 had one major advantage, which is that the solvents were less toxic. In terms of the magnitude of spin/speed effect the speed glues aold by TT companies were not better, and many were much worse. This is something that I and many of my clubmates (including former eastern European professional players) know from personal experience. And those tire glues could be bought at Walmart or an auto parts store for 1/10th the price. And if you wanted even more effect, just add a dash of lighter fluid (but that killed rubbers fzst).
I don't miss that aspect of the sport but it is true that the clst of rubber skyrocketed after 2008. |
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:27pm |
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OK, I will repeat it one more time for those who still refuse to understand: No one can actually break an unenforceable rule if no one has been convicted because of it yet, much less "cheating".
You guys need to be educated that just because a rule is on the book does not mean it is automatically legally binding. Far from it. In this case, ITTF has provided ample evidence in the past three years that it knows it is unenforceable (a bad rule that won't stand any legal challenge), thereby not legally binding. The pro players know this.
Edited by roundrobin - 09/16/2017 at 11:29pm |
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BigFatLoop
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:33pm |
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Isn't it also possible that the CNT, and other national associations, get un-boosted rubbers from the manufacturers so that the players/coaches can then boost the hell out of them with the latest, home-made, super duper, specially formulated, super toxic (or not), booster they can get their hands on, knowing full well that it would be WAY BETTER than any boosting that a manufacturer can provide? Or, maybe there are deals with manufacturers to get equipment that is custom boosted for certain players or certain national associations to the detriment of other players/associations and the rest of the TT enthusiasts. I think someone here eluded to this as well, but in any case stating that players/coaches only use manufacturer-boosted rubbers may be a stretch (no pun intended). Sure, everybody is innocent until proven guilty but if amateur players, who don't play in tournaments, can experiment with whatever chemicals they want then so can pro players and coaches since existing boosting bans are practically unenforceable or, at best, politically incorrect. Damn!! ... I just remember that the ITTF said their testing for boosting violations is successful so there goes that theory ... And we all know the ITTF is 100% neutral, fair, a-political, and doesn't pander to manufacturers or to any national associations, right? <--- SARCASM !!! Edited by BigFatLoop - 09/16/2017 at 11:50pm |
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Baal
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:37pm |
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Boosters can result in a rubber that is too thick. That can be detected, and then that blade is not allowed. That mistake is rarely made. They should continue to enforce that.
By the way, the effect of booster is very mild compared to the effect of speed glue! Like a bb gun compared to a bazooka. Bryce FX with fumes coming off a fresh gluing was like a combination cannon and spin machine. |
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:41pm |
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That's quite possibly THE answer why this rule will never be enforced at the pro level, therefore unenforceable unless they convict a player first.
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DTopSpirit
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:46pm |
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No, I guess I don't. The rule is unenforceable due to current limitations in technology. If technology improves, it might then become easily enforceable. Does it become cheating at this point? I agree the rule is stupid and hard to enforce. It is still a rule, and in my opinion you are still a cheat if you break it. I could very well be in the minority opinion on this. I guess I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree that you are right. But perhaps I am wrong.
So a rule is not a rule until the ITTF catches somebody the first time? And then it becomes a rule? Perhaps a glance at the latest ITTF racket infraction list might be indicative of which players have been caught boosting in recent years? There seem to be a few mentions of Thickness and VOC infractions in there. Perhaps, just perhaps, some of these were the result of players boosting themselves? Or maybe all the thickness violations were just the result of multiple layers of glue when gluing up the rubber, and not booster? If any of the players listed were boosting themselves, are they cheats or not? http://www.old.ittf.com/stories/pictures/players_RC_infractions_2017_07_12.pdf So maybe we are saying that only dumb/unlucky players are cheating because they get caught by the ITTF, while the clever/lucky ones aren't? Anyway, got to head to the club. Again, thanks for the interesting conversation, it was a fun way to spend my Sunday morning discussing the subject.
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roundrobin
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:46pm |
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Isn't that interesting when a racket fails the ITTF test the player is still not being accused of personally altering the equipment? As long as their sponsors (world's biggest rubber makers) are standing behind their players, this player-self-boosting rule will never stand up to any legal challenge. |
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pgpg
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Posted: 09/16/2017 at 11:49pm |
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That's some really interesting logic right there... So, hypothetical case: you are playing golf, and your ball landed in the woods. Your partner is not there next to you, so you can move the ball to get a better lie without him noticing. You won't be caught, so it's OK to do this? As a side note: golf pros are supposed to call penalties on themselves, and most seem to do that - 'cheaters' are rare and are ostracized, AFAIK. Another scenario: you have an opportunity to 'cheat' on your wife, and again situation is such that you are 100% sure she won't find out. Do you go ahead? After all, you are not breaking the law, it's not enforceable in this case, and 'everybody does it' (for a reasonably loose definition of 'everybody'). P.S. If ITTF does not enforce it, what all these DQs and penalties are for failing racket inspection? Not a lot, but they exist. |
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Purett wrote: