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Has Tenergy been surpassed? |
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Baal 
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 Topic: Has Tenergy been surpassed?Posted: 03/22/2015 at 4:24pm |
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ELP hardness a d speed spin ratio felt more like T05 on my blade. Same high throw.
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slevin
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Posted: 03/22/2015 at 3:25pm |
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I had T05 both sides before the leagues in my area moved to plastic. Since then, I've moved to MX-P on one side and now shall move to MX-P both sides. The difference in grip and dwell time is clear with MX-P being better in both v/s the plastic ball. However, for RPB, perhaps, a slightly softer rubber works better... Back on topic, my current preference is against soft topsheets (so Xiom, unfortunately, is out). The best two I've tried (with grippy, hard topsheets) are MX-P and Rakza X. Which of these two I like is blade-dependant: on harder blades, Rakza X (50 deg) is a shade too hard and MX-P suits better. On softer blades, I prefer Rakza X anyday. They play differently though - with RX having much better control. Perhaps, it is like pre-boosted MX-P.
Edited by slevin - 03/22/2015 at 3:28pm |
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Clarence247
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Posted: 03/21/2015 at 9:53pm |
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Of course when talking about pure feel, no one rubber can really surpass another - especially if you've been playing with something for several years and grown accustomed to it - you're likely to like it's feel best. Generally for feel, we cannot normally talk of better or worse - just different feels which may be closer or further from a personal preference.
Baal you often mention EL-P, how would you characterise it (in the same way as I characterised Sigma, P7, MX-P etc...) is the only difference from MX-P the hardness or is there more to it? WHat about comparing it to Tenergy?
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
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Baal
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Posted: 03/21/2015 at 12:01am |
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Clarence I can use probably any of those but there is something about the feel of tenergy I really like. Somehow it is soft but solid. It pairs with an ALC blade better than anything else. It is like they were designed together.
I think more people should try EL-P. |
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Clarence247
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 11:08pm |
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From what I see, from the semi-pro / pro players I come in contact with - the following rubbers can be considered better than tenergy at least in some aspect:
XIOM sigma (1,2) - better for far off the table power players Stiga Calibra series - better for players who emphasise on speedy low arc shots, and players who aim to play deep trying to push the opponent back Adidas P7 - for players seeking extra control and maximum spin - in order to play even more offensively early in the point as control is retained. MX-P - for players who open with control and rely on the 5th ball to impart real power, also for players who enter extended rallies (in this aspect it's equal to but not better than Tenergy) Acuda S1 - many eastern European players prefer this to Tenergy but I have not tried it, most of these players are aggressive offensive players. XIOM OMega V - again there are many who prefer this to Tenergy - but I have no 1st hand experience with it - however the players who prefer this to Tenergy are generally slightly less aggressive than the Acuda S1 users I am sure there are more, for example many clubs train juniors using Joola Ryzhm over Tenergy because it is slightly less sensitive to spin but allows them to play in a similar way as if they were playing with Tenergy - but this just means it is more fit for players still acquiring skills. |
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
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Clarence247
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 11:08pm |
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I agree that in this category of rubber, I find the P7 having (in my subjective opinion) best ratio between control, speed and spin. I find this makes it the best 3rd ball attack FH rubber I have used because I am able to use as much power as I like, but still retain control over shot placement, and still retain enough spin to overpower the opponent's backspin. The rubber does not feel super grippy when running your finger across it, but as the ball sinks in the elastic topsheet grabs it without fail and generates a lot of spin. I do not find it slow on my Virtuoso and neither was it slow on the YEO. I have played and compared it over around 4 3hr sessions to T05FX which is the most similar of the tenergy line to it... and I just feel the P7 is better. It is similar but has something which gives me more confidence - it is easier to lift the backspin with it, and that means that you can add more power even when the backspin is heavy. I also find serving with P7 to be superior. On the receive it is touchy on passive shots, and like tenergy, it is better at imparting new spin and overpowering the opponent's spin rather than absorbing / diluting spin. If you have an active receive flicks, drives, loops, heavy push, placed touch shots - it is good, but when you're hesitant it can punish. MX-P as I wrote in another thread - in my opinion could also have possibly improved upon tenergy - it is really great as the point enters the 5th ball - gives you great power and allows you to use any initiative gained. It is a very powerful rally rubber, comparable to T05 even when none of the sides has the initiative and both are counterlooping. It is great for 3rd ball too, but not as great as the P7 - because again, you have to be more careful, therefore more conservative. Tenergy I think is the rubber that produces sharpest dip / arc on a loop but this property alone for me does not give it superiority over the latest ESN rubbers. For some players that much arc is not even necessary or desirable, and for these players then Stiga Calibra series has been a choice to go to. |
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 4:37pm |
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This stuff isn't "tacky" like regular H3, but more like the pro H3's mentioned elsewhere.
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NextLevel
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 4:31pm |
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Thor got top billing as the Tacky Tensor when it came out. Since then, there have been a few others.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 4:26pm |
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Ok, I've checked this more thoroughly w/ some of the stuff in my bag. Side by side, the thor is about same as Yinhe sun, less than moon pro, but bit more grippy than tenergy and of course than omega. It's got more stick than I remember it, perhaps because I didn't take it out of the plastic bag and was rubbing near the edges.
Maybe I should try this after the current Moon Pro is up. |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 4:06pm |
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I got the Thor from someone else but it's not supposed to have many hrs on it. It's not tacky, at least not like anything from china. At best like one of the yinhe hybrids w/ the initial tack worn off.
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AndySmith
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 4:00pm |
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MX-P is harder IMO, but has the best ball grab from last year's crop. Boosting it probably brings it more into line, but that's too much effort. For me, Omega V Pro is the closest to T05 overall these days, but still isn't a copy. Thor should be tacky... |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 3:56pm |
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I have the black Pro max, w/ the black sponge. Xiom has differing versions worldwide for some of their stuff, this is from tt11.
I also have a Palio Thor, which seems bit softer. What's the most Tenergy-like ESN? MX-P? |
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AndySmith
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 3:50pm |
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OK, it depends on the sponge hardness with O4 IMO. Elite and Euro have that old-gen bouncy, overly elastic feel. Pro is pretty much bang in the middle of that ESN generation. Some of the current gens are really different, with a supressed bounce and more linearity in general. If you were still inclined to try, you'd probably get on much better with a harder-sponged ESN from the current crop. Some are still soft, bouncy, elastic of course. Some players still look for those qualities. Over time, ESN has built up a good variation across the range. 4-5 years ago the differences were much smaller, and there was a definite "ESN" type. None of them are completely like Tenergy though, and for that I salute the wonderful people who make them in Germanyland.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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NextLevel
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 3:25pm |
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Only because it fits, Hex. Only because it fits. I wrote a long post about the different ESN generations but I am having trouble posting anything owing to internet troubles and I don't save my attempts. Edited by NextLevel - 03/20/2015 at 3:27pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 3:15pm |
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Xiom Omega 4. I specifically got it because it's supposed to be somewhat middle of the road ESN.
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AndySmith
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 3:13pm |
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AH - you mentioned previously that you used some ESN for a while recently. Which one was it?
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 3:01pm |
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The post you reply to was rather substantive which is the complete opposing quality of where "getting the last word in" might apply. It's how adults have conversations longer than 1 post apiece.
And it's really less subtle than it might've been conceived in your mind. |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:55pm |
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Trolling? 1. I didn't name anyone, so it can hardly qualify as blatant. 2. It's a statement of fact - anyone can see just from perusing anyone who has discussed with you on any point in any thread that you have an perpetual motion engine within you that compels you to get the last word in on any discussion you have. It's the reason why it could not ambiguously refer to anyone else and why it is not trolling.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:30pm |
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> He who must have the last word has spoken...
This is pretty blatant trolling and particular ironic in a conversation w/ your friend Baal. > While some tensors I've used redline at 100, and you get wacky flying balls, only can flat hit back. If you commit more the ESN will work, the difference is you'll miss due to lack of accuracy instead of "wacky flying balls". It's something everyone can try and figure out themselves. > he knows more about it than you do through a rarified phenomenon of knowledge osmosis from the atmosphere. Anything sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. |
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Baal
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:27pm |
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Also, what Chinese dialect did the person who made these undergarments speak? Ask AgentHEX. He is native in that dialect. He is.... the Most Interesting Man in the World. |
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slevin
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:24pm |
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I totally agree on there being no rubber superior to Tenergy.
By the way, for all fellow Tenergy fanboys, I have a trade: I have a brand new, unsealed T05 2.1 (red) that I'd be willing to trade with 2 of your new MX-P / M1 Turbo / OVT (the 1:2 ratio is based on current prices). Please PM me if interested.
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slevin
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:20pm |
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NL: you must get around to accepting the fact that even though AgentHex has not played with all generations of ESN rubbers (& I know that you have at least tried them), he knows more about it than you do through a rarified phenomenon of knowledge osmosis from the atmosphere.
What work do you do? AgentHex knows more about it than you do. What colored undergarments did you wear today? Ask AgentHex.
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popperlocker
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:19pm |
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Totally agree with NL. It's very hard to top out Tenergy, it redlines at 1000. While some tensors I've used redline at 100, and you get wacky flying balls, only can flat hit back.
Don't forget the pros are boosting their fresh esn rubbers, which can compete with Tenergy. Spin lovers that don't boost, and don't want to be changing sheets every week, go buy some Tenergy. |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:11pm |
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He who must have the last word has spoken...
Seriously, ESN has had over 4 generations of rubber AMD I an nor even thinking about some specialized rubbers like Victas... |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:04pm |
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> Again, one simply can't generalize about all the ESN products because they make a gazillion different rubbers.
ESNs tend to fall under a fairly narrow range. There's definitely a certain recipe they follow with tweaks for each. Contrast this to Yinhe who actually make everything all the way to full tack. Even for the supposedly high grip ESN rubber you mention it falls off quickly. More tack/grip decreases speed and I suspect it was ESN's strategy to reach equality with T by sacrificing everything but speed first (eg ridiculous tuning that falls off a cliff). Maybe as they improve they'll start added other qualities back, but a gap still exists. |
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Baal
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 1:57pm |
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MX-P is very grippy when fairly new, quite comparable to T05. However, T05 stays grippier longer. MX-P is just a touch faster (especially when it's new) and harder overall than T05, and some people who have trouble with it might find EL-P more to their liking on BH especially -- the overall feel was closer on my blades anyway.
Again, one simply can't generalize about all the ESN products because they make a gazillion different rubbers. Evolution sponge seems to be designed much closer to Tenergy than most other ESN rubbers I had tried earlier (such as P7 to mention one). As things stand now, I like T05 the best, probably because I have been using it for nearly all of the last 7 years, but if they stopped making it, or if they became even more audacious on the price, I would easily find an ESN product I would use just as effectively once I got used to it. I certainly haven't tried their entire product line. They have definitely narrowed the gap (assuming that we are talking about players for whom Tenergy was a reasonable choice to begin with). |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 1:41pm |
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It's certainly not high spin per se esp. given pro level players use ESN, but rather bouncy lower grip rubber require more commitment to an already difficult shot whereas with some tack you can use blade angles to just change the spin. So ironically the worse you are the less able you are to make it work. Personally I can't get the typical ESN grip to work; on opening against backspin I end up using a weaker more concave swing. |
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AndySmith
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 8:02am |
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It's easy to point at the pro's use of equipment and make judgments, but it's impossible to know how many players use Tenergy because:
1. They feel it's the best for their style/needs. 2. They're sponsored. 3. They moved to it just after it was released and it was clearly better at that time, and nothing on the market is significantly better so the adjustment time for a switch can't be justified. There is a LOT more ESN/Stiga being used these days at the pro level, and you can apply some of the same provisos above to that too. But at my average amateur level the differences in performance between recent ESN and Tenergy are very small. And going back to the OP...
...I also find that current ESN behave far better in the short game, particularly service receive, which is a bigger advantage for me than the disadvantage of losing some of the easy ball grab of Tenergy. |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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beeray1
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 7:50am |
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There's been a lot of pictures lately for european players' rackets. While I can't voice to how Evolution or Rasant play (never tried) it seems that for them, if it's not Tenergy then it's Rasant or Evolution. There were lots of players with either on both sides. Sponsorship or preference, idk. With that in mind it's not surpassed, but definitely rivaled now.
Edited by beeray1 - 03/20/2015 at 7:51am |
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schen
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Posted: 03/20/2015 at 5:16am |
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Agreed - I've tried finding all sorts of alternatives for T05 for RPB and used MX-P for a good period of time, but after a while I found myself constantly doubting the rubber's consistency against high amounts of spin. I think if Tenergy will ever be surpassed, it will be as an entirely different class of rubber rather than imitations of the grippy topsheet + porous springy sponge formula.
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schen wrote: