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Nexy Karis M and M+ reviews

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickhrdlicka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2017 at 4:00pm
It just feels" disengaged, almost like hitting with a frying pan (just to exaggerate a little bit)  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2017 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

It's totally a feel thing.  M+ just feels "not right" to me.  I can't really say why. People say it is faster than M, but I didn't feel that so much.  Just not a pleasant feel. 

The rubbers I had used before it are certainly not soft.  Overall (topsheet plus sponge) M is harder than any Tenergy FX (except for T25FX) or FX-P, so with M you would still be stepping in that direction.

However, ViktorK likes M+.

For some people, faster means they can loop harder and still get the ball to dip (which usually means less spin at lower swing/contact speeds).  For some people, faster means quicker rebound.  M+ is definitely faster by criteria 1.  It is possibly fast by criteria 2 though I don't think so per se.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2017 at 10:38am
After a month with Karis M I tried out EL-S on a Viscaria.  The only way I could keep the ball on the table was with pitiful half strokes!  Funny.  I was not in best form anyway -- feet felt like lead -- but still felt much more comfortable with Karis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2017 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

After a month with Karis M I tried out EL-S on a Viscaria.  The only way I could keep the ball on the table was with pitiful half strokes!  Funny.  I was not in best form anyway -- feet felt like lead -- but still felt much more comfortable with Karis.

I know the feeling.  A high level opponent thought I was using Chinese rubber because he kept wondering how I was able to keep some of his most powerful loops in the vicinity of the table even when they didn't go on, which they often did.  Until I used Karis, I never really appreciated how many points poor defense was costing me.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/16/2017 at 3:19am
I have said it often, one of the biggest reasons I moved to Karis right before the NA Teams is I can stay in more rallies and still trouble opponents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote viva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/16/2017 at 6:30am
When would nexyusa have karis in 2 mm ?

Edited by viva - 02/16/2017 at 6:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sspark80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/16/2017 at 6:35am
Originally posted by viva viva wrote:

When would nexyusa have karis in 2 mm ?

Hi, Viva.
They have 2.0 in stock now. I bought a sheet already.

Mine was the M version, not the M+.


Edited by sspark80 - 02/16/2017 at 6:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote viva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/16/2017 at 12:27pm
I want one of each
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/16/2017 at 9:40pm
well, i think i'll try the M+, even if is not the most popular among most of you Smile. Hopefully i'll start using it on sunday

Anyway, i just added both rubbers to the www.tabletennisdb.com website. (the cover images will show up soon and i hope the admin fix a typo made on the M page).

Why don't you guys copy your reviews over there, helping nexy get more exposure on the TT world.

The only thing that bothers me is that nexy don't have Speed, spin, control scales to fill up on the page and compare Disapprove


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2017 at 12:28am
I go to the post office Saturday morning to pick my rubbers up; I have the feeling I want to like the M+ and I am afraid I will find reasons to do so, like thinking of myself good enough to take advantage of what it has better than M on the fh; dangerous path... 
I will judge with what happens in matches and I will separate feel/fun from results; that's what I repeat to myself now.


Edited by fatt - 02/17/2017 at 1:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2017 at 12:33am
Fatt, maybe it would have been better if you had not read any of this!  Just see if you like one of them. Dont over-think it.

Maybe you will hate them both.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2017 at 1:01am
I have thought that more than once. I will put those 2 suckers on a brand new vega pro and compare with a combo I like: baracuda bh and m2 fh on the same blade (same weight, same skull test sound). I won't let my review dictate my reason; the opposite will be true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shaibu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2017 at 6:57pm
If I order Karis rubbers from nexyusa and choose "free shipping" option - how will they be shipped? USPS? With or without tracking #?

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2017 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I have thought that more than once. I will put those 2 suckers on a brand new vega pro and compare with a combo I like: baracuda bh and m2 fh on the same blade (same weight, same skull test sound). I won't let my review dictate my reason; the opposite will be true.
when you get the rubbers most of us would have retired
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2017 at 9:59pm
USPS should be an easy choice. I think they are best if you want cheapest shipping costs with tracking, especially with a company account.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/22/2017 at 11:29pm
Wasn't sure whether to post this here or on the Stiga Mantra thread, but figured it fits here better because what I learned tells me more about Karis than it does about Mantra, actually.

I tried Stiga Mantra M today, it comes form the same factory in Japan.  I compared it to Karis M, both on Viscarias. 

They were actually similar in a lot of ways, I was surprised that Mantra M was not really a lot faster (really not faster at all).  Compared to Karis, the internal pips of Mantra are about twice as long, but still quite short relative to a lot of other rubbers.  (The pips on the inside of Karis are incredibly short). It seems like the shorter pips is becoming a trend (see the various Rasanter threads here and at TT Daily) and I think it is a good trend (for most mortal players), taken to an extreme by Karis.

Mantra has a different color to its top sheet.  If I was describing it like a desert or an ice cream, I would say that it is more "rich and creamy".  Brighter color.  Very high quality.  Yogi Bear commented on that at some length and I see where he is coming from.  But just countering away, or looping while someone blocks or blocking someone's loops, these rubbers are really not all that different.  At the very least, they are cousins with family resemblance even  if they are not "identical cousins" (very old TV reference).

But here is the interesting thing.  After a month of Karis, you kind of get used to no surprises.  And with Mantra M, there were occasional surprises, just like with Tenergy, and Evolution and every other modern rubber I have tried.  Strange non-linearities that sometimes make you miss.  As Next Level said, until you play with Karis, you really have no sense of how often this happens.  I certainly didn't.

I attribute this to the internal pips because as best as I can tell, THAT is the one thing about Karis that is really different from Mantra and anything else out there.  Karis is like a thin topsheet sitting almost directly on top of a sponge, and their hardness is well matched, so they work together.  Pips can have all sorts of effects to change the angle the ball leaves the rubber, or how long it stays on the rubber and probably lots of different things, and sometimes it is a really good effect, and sometimes it is quite non-linear and not quite what you expected.  Karis eliminates this by coming as close as is possible to not having the pips at all.

Mantra M is really good rubber, and a lot of people will like it. Very grippy topsheet.  Nice arc to the ball, and I wanted very much to like it. And I do, actually.

But I will stick with Karis M for now.

One other thing, since my technique has evolved to use a slower rubber like Karis (slower compared to Tenergy or MX-P), I have no problem ripping balls fast and hard, and oddly enough compared to Mantra, I felt like my balls had more penetration with Karis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2017 at 1:51am
Originally posted by shaibu shaibu wrote:

If I order Karis rubbers from nexyusa and choose "free shipping" option - how will they be shipped? USPS? With or without tracking #?

Thanks

Bogeyhunter would be shipping your rubbers, he uses USPS from Florida with tracking number. Usually takes 2 days from there to upper East Coast. I would ship USPS if the customer was a West Coast and bought rubbers only or all the items ordered. I keep a smaller selection with me, most is in FL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2017 at 1:53am
Baal, the last two months using Karis, I would take a week to adapt back to MX-P. 

Karis just handles the topspin rallies for me so much better the percentages are just with Karis M on my blade... M+ on the LISSOM.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2017 at 9:49am
So far I played 4 matches at the club and several 30 minutes sessions on the robot.

WHAT AN NEXYTMENT! (copyright fatt).

I put both m and m+ on a brand new Vega pro st 85g and I compare that setup with another one that makes me play well: Same blade with baracuda and bf m2.

I confirm the hyper control due to pips structure and that led me to think that Karis is to Baracuda what T25 is to T05.

My biggest surprise so far? I can hardly feel any difference in speed, spin and feel between the 66g m+ and the 68g m, all the way to thinking about a mistake at packaging time.

More to come this weekend or next week about my positive experience: I last longer.


Edited by fatt - 02/23/2017 at 9:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2017 at 10:01am
Baal, doesn't two rubbers with more or less the same technology but one with longer pips being slower (or the same) and less penetrating than the one with visibly  shorter pips strike you as odd?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2017 at 10:20am
Mantra M is softer. And there are probably other reasons too that I dont know. Among them beyond coming from same factory i dont lnow how much technology they share.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2017 at 10:28am
softer could be the answer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stancuzi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/25/2017 at 6:28pm
Mantra has the OCS sponge, that makes a big difference comparing not only to Karis, but to all the other rubbers.
Something you can keep in mind when you think about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 6:20pm
I played again yesterday afternoon; 4 matches total and probably 1 hour of warm up and practice when nobody was challenging the table.

I used those 2 rubbers on a 85g Xiom Vega Pro ST and I can compare with another same blade with Bluefire M2 max fh and Baracuda 2.0 bh that are excellent standards for both fh and bh. I am rated 1800+ USATT but I often play 200 points above that on a good day; and frankly my knowledge of the game is ever far higher LOL.

First of all I have to say I still can't make the difference between M (68g uncut) and M+ (66g uncut) among the 2 sheets I received; topsheet are the same; sponge looks the same on both and my "finger-based durometer" says hardness is the same; vertical bounce (couple feet high) is the same; last, when switching rubbers during a given practice rally the very same happens, driving and looping. I am going to assume I played with Karis M on both sides (the packaging was different, though).

The rubber's speed is moderate and power is waking up when the blade and rubbers are used in an ideal combination, when the wood is engaged enough to give power but not enough to let the rubber not brush the ball enough: in that sense I believe the Vega Pro is an excellent match for the rubber as shown later on.

The rubbers are a dream to keep the ball on the table at warm up time. Variation between almost flat hits and topsheet/sponge only ball covering are easier than ever. The ball sinks well in the rubber and we can feel the topsheet sponge combo as a very elastic one. They both work together seamlessly as a whole: the same way a broken forehand technique may cut off and waste power between the legs and the shoulder, some combos topsheet/sponge see the sponge doing its thing only to leave the topsheet act on its own, partially cancelling out the sponge's work (non-linearity of certain rubbers giving "surprises"). The way Karis works gives an utter harmony between topsheet and sponge. I made macro pictures of the pips on the sides of the rubber and it's almost like the pips are embedded into the sponge: will we see one day the pips all sank into the sponge? this is where Karis seems to go and it's a winning combo: it just works! the result is confidence, leading to wider strokes allowing easier fine tuning. This is probably the best feature of that rubber: note that we generally write this way about slow rubbers but Karis is not slow: instead it should be described as not bouncy enough to let the brushing unfinished/incomplete and wasted spin happen (the ball leaves too fast).

In looping I am successful in opening on both wings; I am much better in opening loops on the fh side than I am with the Bluefire M2 and that's why I will switch to Karis on the fh (that's almost decided but I have reserves because the hitting); this is especially true on rubber-only opening when the serve almost second bounces on the table but is still loopable. Opening loops on the bh is harder to do with Karis than the Baracuda. I have to say it will be very hard to make me go away from baracuda on the bh because I can do everything very confident and I was used to it right away; full arm bh are better with the Karis: I am training at home to go Kreanga full arm bh contacting with the ball as far as possible from my belly and Karis helps tremendously for that: if I can stabilize that weapon (the only hard thing to do with the Baracuda) and if I find a way to open spinny (slowish) bh loops (off the table or banana over it; A+ mention on flicks and banana for the Karis though) with the Karis as well as I do with the Baracuda then I'll switch to Karis on both sides. It is sad to say but I find Karis a bit too soft on the bh while its hardness is ideal for my fh.

I do not like much to hit with the Karis: it seems like you need to brush everything, even on high balls: I always see high-level people applying spin even on smashes and I missed MANY hits and smashes with Karis however if I force myself to spin even a little bit on hits and smashes then I am successful: this is forcing me to go through change of technique and it might be painful as there is nothing more rewarding than a flat hit that lands, especially on emergency ave maria kill shots, like the ones v. balls arriving on my elbow, making me bend to the left to hit along the line: I am aware this is bad technique only so Karis should not be at fault but the Bluefire is better at this; again, brush everything, at least a little bit, or be punished, at least in my case.

On serving the reverse pendulum is better with Karis than Bluefire M2 and I more than once created enough underpin with a not so big motion the opponent underestimated it and netted the return; same with topspin counterpart. The same can be said with regular pendulum serves. I can live with Karis on serving; it is excellent for that due to its versatile nature and ability to support my desire to vary spin around the dead ball while applying more of it for surprise every once in a while hoping for a misread.

In serve returns I am VERY happy with Karis; A+ there; the pushing is divine on both sides. The bh banana loop on short underpin serves is suddenly more stable than ever; my opponents switched to serving on my fh right away or long on my bh and I gave credit to Karis. I will recommend the rubber to perfect that stroke that nowadays is SO IMPORTANT. It's actually the best rubber I know for it for both that stroke (and Kreanga full arm bh loop).

What really interested me is the pips structure; in the macro pictures below we see very small pips that are very close to each other; I am convinced this is the main factor in the rubber's characteristics: they allow sponge and topsheet to work hand in hand for a very stable and laways predictable result; I believe faster/lower sponges and topsheets should always follow the model just for that: linearity, predictability; the same way smaller pips  in the Tenergy 25 (even if they are much more apart) makes it more stable and linear than T05, Karis plants itself as a point of reference for all modern rubbers.

I do believe the combo Karis - Xiom Vega Pro is a perfect match. I am actually flabbergasted I have found that combo in about 6 months, since I bought my 1st vega pro in August from artpeer. The stars aligned for my game and I have no more excuses.

Thank you veru much to Nexy and arg0 for letting me try those rubbers; I will continue to share my experience with it: it is a positive one that lets me think deeper in my game and the game in general and I am very hopeful it will help me reaching new heights.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

First of all I have to say I still can't make the difference between M (68g uncut) and M+ (66g uncut) among the 2 sheets I received; topsheet are the same; sponge looks the same on both and my "finger-based durometer" says hardness is the same; vertical bounce (couple feet high) is the same; last, when switching rubbers during a given practice rally the very same happens, driving and looping. I am going to assume I played with Karis M on both sides (the packaging was different, though).

Thanks for the review

Is it possible that you got the same rubber (possibly Karis M) in both packages (ie: the M+ package erroneously contained M?)? What is the approximate hardness level anyways? Around 45 deg or softer? Is it much slower than Baracuda?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 7:56pm
45 (palio blitz/ macro era scale) sounds about right however the sponge and topsheet are a whole and it seems more tender than that so I'm not sure.
On my way back to the club atm (bus). I'll focus on always brushing no matter what. I'll also remember the "covering when hitting" necessary commitment with this rubber: I did not try the the rubber in utter drive mode yet (in practice), that stroke at the very opposite of the slow rubber only very spinny shots, asking a sort of stone throwing stroke. I bet the kill loop / fast drive might be a stroke of choice for this rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 7:58pm
I definitely felt a difference between M and M+ immediately.  No doubt at all.  I could tell in the first two rallies.  (Recall that I forgot to pay attention to which was red and which was black in my first pair).  So I also wonder if the packaging was wrong, and  in fact I can't see any other explanation.

It was a mistake for Nexy to not make it clear on the topsheet which was which because it could make this error easy.

Fatt, for me, not every shot was easier with M right at the beginning.  With time I found the adjustments.  Don't give it up on your BH just yet. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 11:31pm
In the bus back home. The short game on the fh is harder and it's a good thing because all what I net now is due to the bounciness of other rubbers I am used to. Bh is still erratic but less than yesterday and last week.
Fh loop is getting greater and greater so it's my new fh rubber I am sold on that. The way I play there is no down to it if I cover my hits.
I confirm the relative softness allowing not being shy on fh loops when it's time to go for it. It's more due to the sponge and topsheet acting better as a whole imo (I am addicted to that concept that karis reveals.)
I still have to figure the bh loop; what was forgivable with baracuda is not with karis: The contact has to happen further meaning an earlier commitment and it's not easy.


Edited by fatt - 02/27/2017 at 12:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2017 at 11:56pm
Yes the concept is amazing. I wonder if it could still work on something faster overall? Not that Karis is real slow. But you cant be lazy.

On my bh loop the adjustment i think i made was to backswing more behind and less below the ball, relax and feel free to hit hard and imagine i am pressing the ball down at the end of the stroke so i follow through all the way over. Dont be shy with it. But relax. You kind of have to tell it what to do. Mx-p i always had to hold back because the ball might go to the barrier if you are a bit off. Do that with Karis and your shot is weak and indecisive.
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Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Seattle, WA
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Points: 14294
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2017 at 12:40am
I like your add on about the bh. Thank you for being a good tt fellow forever. Going to sleep now. Ma long match today was usual business and karis made my ping pong life more interesting.
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