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illegal serves removal free arm?? |
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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Just stating the obvious:
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Wow. Nice.
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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thanks vvk1. it is a pretty splendid venue for a 1 or 2 star.
cheers Baal, next time you are in England you would be welcome to enter!! LOL |
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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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been awhile. I visited APW46 last time. A great time that has to be repeated if only i can get there.
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BeaverMD
Gold Member Joined: 11/09/2007 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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That is a VERY nice venue. Look at that court space. Wow! Why are there three chairs for each table? For towels?
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mhnh007
Platinum Member Joined: 11/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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This is in the UK. They probably having tea between games . |
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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The middle chair is for the umpire, the other two are for whatever the players decide to use them for. Towels, drinks, or to sit down between matches. It was a veteran (over 40s) tournament after all.
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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hey if you guys want to come over and visit us ill arrange a table tennis 'rider cup'.
USA v Europe. |
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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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So the umpire doesn't move around to get a better view of the serve legality, guess the umpires are on non aerobic format for exercise, LOL. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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It sort of has been done, mog1111. In 2000 in Manchester, a USA vs. England veterans' hardbat tete a tete was played best 2 of 3 games to 21 points. England was represented by Dennis Neale, a former international, Henry Buist, England's best full-time hardbat player, and Jeff Ingber, a top junior player for England in the early 1950s. America's stalwarts were Marty Reisman, winner of the 1949 British Open, Steve Berger. a student of 10-time U.S. champion Dick Miles and later to become the 2000 National Hardbat Singles Champion, and Scott Gordon, substituting for one of America's best hardbat players, John Tannehill, whose passport didn't arrive in time for him to be able to play. I was there both to watch this shootout and serve, if need be, as target practice for Neale, Buist, and Ingber if one of our players were to come down with a case of scurvy or a torn anterior cruciate ligament or something. We Yanks did not fare too well. Reisman defeated Ingber, but lost to Buist and Neale. Berger lost to Neale and I believe Buist, but defeated Ingber. Scott Gordon played very well against Neale, but lost to him, Buist, and Ingber. The showdown was a lot of fun to watch, and the hospitality shown us was first-rate. Mancunian veteran table tennis players recognize good pong when they see it. One of them said, and here I am paraphrasing somewhat, bloody hell! I thought I knew what table tennis was, but this is really table tennis! Straight, no chaser. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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that's a great story.
I don't think I could muster players of that standard together quite? Although Dennis Neale does a lot of coaching and I often see him coaching juniors at tournaments. |
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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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How many faults did they call?
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Neither one of them removed their free arm after the ball toss. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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I agree with you, LUCKYLOOP, but we gotta remember this: an illegal serve isn't an illegal serve unless an umpire calls it as such, which hardly ever happens, unless it happens to some poor dude or dudette at a crucial point in a match. Thus, for all practical purposes, there is no such thing as an illegal serve in competitive table tennis.
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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ZingyDNA
Platinum Member Joined: 09/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 2373 |
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What? I see both of them removing their free arm after the toss. The free arm can't magically disappear instantly after the ball leaves the palm, you know. Edited by ZingyDNA - 09/29/2017 at 10:38pm |
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pongfugrasshopper
Premier Member Joined: 03/22/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3659 |
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Their serves seem fine to me. If you want to see blatantly illegal never moving free arm out of the way, then watch pretty much any of He Zhi Wen's serves. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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The explanation is like in the movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Aliens have taken the form of nearly every ITTF international referee, and some forum posters and moderators, with the evil aim of destroying table tennis through illegal serving. In this way they will control the planet.
How else can we explain that these serves are almost never called. They are also responsible for ZJK fan girlz. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Well Tweedledum my Tweedledee! You're actually making more sense than I ever assumed you could. What other explanation can there be that mischievous malicious aliens, most likely those draconianesque Spalbirds from the newly discovered Kuiper Belt planet Mendo, have managed to co-opt and zombiefy virtually all ITTF umpires, and not to mention but I'll mention it anyway, have lobobotomized the brains of various and sundry forum posters and moderators to table tennis forums, with the posible exception of the Yahoo Hardbat forum. No two ways about it, the table tennis that some of you have come to know and love is doomed. In the words of Queen Anne Boleyn shortly before she was to be beheaded, there is no remedy. Oh death rock table tennis asleep, and in sad cypress (hinoki) let it be laid. Not even ZJK's fan girlz can resusitate it. I fear that divine intervention too is out of the question.
Edited by berndt_mann - 09/30/2017 at 12:47am |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Mytoman
Member Joined: 05/28/2010 Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Actually, there was a proposal in the last AGM/BoD to abandon the "remove the free arm from the area between the ball and the netposts"-rule. The rationale was that umpires fault players for this rule, even if the ball is not hidden for the other player. It could typical be "Tristan Flore" service, where the free arm and hand is in the area for the whole high toss, but is removed when the ball is falling. Furthermore, the rationale was that the rule "the ball shall not be hidden for the receiver" should be enough. The proposal did not pass, but it is likely to pop up again next time.
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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Baal, consulted with my international umpire and he confirmed I was correct and the arm should be removed immediately, not left dangled and just moved last minute.
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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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The problem with that, mog, is the evidence of how international umpires actually call serves. The way they call them is consistent with my comment on the last page.
It always pays to watch what people actually do. See also Zingy's comment which hitsvthe nail on the head. You are right about umpire vantage point though. Since I played a long time in hidden serve era, things seem a lot easier now so I don't get angry about it very often. (And can retaliate if it comes to that, I spent a long time learning hiding technique way back when it was legal). |
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pongfugrasshopper
Premier Member Joined: 03/22/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3659 |
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So the original post by mog is confirmed correct by an international umpire. Regardless of whether or not it gets called, it's still the rule. You do have to allow for the momentum of the hand when projecting upwards, but surely it should be removed by the time it starts its downward path.
Edit: BTW, Jennifer gets a warning for not removing the free arm for the serve at 2:30 in the link that igorponger posted above. Edited by pongfugrasshopper - 10/09/2017 at 6:41am |
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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to be fair I just switched to lp and in practice sunday I got my partner to do hide serves and other illegal serves and it did not cause me a problem
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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
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darucla
Super Member Joined: 07/30/2017 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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I see this thread title and every time think that removing the free arm seems a little harsh, to say nothing about the problems with throwing the ball up with only one arm.
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penholderxxx
Super Member Joined: 09/19/2016 Location: Asia Status: Offline Points: 451 |
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2.6.5 of the service rules state :
" As soon as the ball has been projected (my emphasis), the server's free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net......... " That is as plain as it can be. No one is asking for the hands to disappear instantly and really, is there any need to have an international umpire or any umpire to determine what the sentence mean ? There will be no end to this as in another thread on whether an illegal serve is cheating or otherwise.
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Iloveplayingtabletennis
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garwor
Silver Member Joined: 06/02/2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 730 |
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tt needs 3 judges, one for net, and two behind table (one per side), to use camera and react quickly after service.
It would be even easier to make software to signal if the ball is hidden from camera behind table in any moment during service. Today's cameras and softwares are very advanced and detecting one white circle object on non'white backgroud would be easy. Edited by garwor - 10/09/2017 at 9:10am |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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2.06.05 As soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net. The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite upward extension. The part I put I put in bold is equally clear. If the ball is above the arm, the arm is not in the space between the ball and the net. The rule is specific about the space above the ball, and yet says nothing about the space below the ball. It is really easy to draw a conclusion if you don't write down the whole rule, and and a different conclusion when you include the definition that is part of the rule. I strongly suspect the rule is written the way it is because of the issue that ZingyDNA mentioned. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I don't know the exact words mog used when he talked to his international umpire. His phrase "not left dangled and just moved last minute" is not at all what I am saying is allowed but also not may players do that. And I have learned that subtle details of wording are crucial, and with no offense intended to mog, the only thing I really have to go on is what actual international umpires actually do in the most important events in our sport. Bear in mind, the highest levels of umpires are used at the most important events. |
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pongfugrasshopper
Premier Member Joined: 03/22/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3659 |
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It's a bit unfortunate, but even the highest level of umpires do not enforce the ITTF's own rules often. They obviously know the rules, but there's been such a history of not enforcing the rules that it's very hard to break that momentum.
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garwor
Silver Member Joined: 06/02/2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 730 |
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So, why ittf don't change rule to The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite upward AND DOWNWARD extension.
These two words can solve many conflicts and time. |
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Yinhe MC-2 FL fh: Xiom Vega pro bh: Xiom Vega pro Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services! |
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