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Improving serve and receive game

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 9:40am
Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I've heard developing good serves, in general, makes your serve receive game better.  Is this the general belief? 

I really have NO way to practice serves.  The clubs I go to people just want matches and every table is full from the time we set them up until we take them down.  It's terrible.  
then just stay a little longer or come earlier. What's the problem?


Situation is not that easy. lol I'd love to come early or stay late to work on serves.  

The 2 clubs that are available, we arrive and setup the tables, then leave and take down the tables.  The gym is only available during a certain time, so players show up at the start and leave at the end.  Not much I can do.
you're playing in a club where you are a member right? Ask the guy with the key if you can pick up the key and get in early. There are ways you know


+ 1 To all this advice...

There's is no magic bullet; just practice...

How bad do you want it..?

Please understand.  This cannot happen.  I'll try to explain in more detail.

  • On Wednesdays, my club is open from 6:00-9:00pm.
  • The club can only use the time we pay for. (6-9)
  • The hours CANNOT be changed to earlier than 6 or later than 9 or we'll get in trouble. 
  • At 6:00, most of the members are there and every table is taken.  
  • At 9:00, every table is still taken and we now all have to put the tables back and leave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 10:20am
Well, you need a table to practice your services. So you either use the club table or you find another table yourself. To use the club table you need to talk to your clubmates, either to let you use a table alone or, even better, to get someone else practice service/receive with you. You two can even serve from both ends of the table at the same time

If the above cannot happen, you either need to find a table that can do the above somewhere else, or, buy a table at home.

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:


Please understand.  This cannot happen.  I'll try to explain in more detail.

  • On Wednesdays, my club is open from 6:00-9:00pm.
  • The club can only use the time we pay for. (6-9)
  • The hours CANNOT be changed to earlier than 6 or later than 9 or we'll get in trouble. 
  • At 6:00, most of the members are there and every table is taken.  
  • At 9:00, every table is still taken and we now all have to put the tables back and leave.
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 10:30am
Hey man if you're trying to compete with players at the 2300+ level as you mentioned in your first post you're gonna need a table to practice your serves. The thing is, you may think you need deception in your serves to improve your game and this may not actually be the case. Simple but effective serves can go a long way. Do you have video or more details about your game? Just curious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 10:59am
As a last resort, practice your serves during matches.  Instead of mixing up your serves like normal, only serve one serve, focusing on quality and not so much on winning.  The advantage of practicing serves this way is you get immediate feedback on whether the serve is good or not, something which you do not get when practicing serves alone.  There were times when I needed to practice my reverse pendulum serve so I've played matches where every single serve was the RPS.  Try it!

Quote I think I could play at a 2000-2100 level....
What is your level?



Edited by GMan4911 - 10/24/2017 at 11:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

As a last resort, practice your serves during matches.  Instead of mixing up your serves like normal, only serve one serve, focusing on quality and not so much on winning.  The advantage of practicing serves this way is you get immediate feedback on whether the serve is good or not, something which you do not get when practicing serves alone.  There were times when I needed to practice my reverse pendulum serve so I've played matches where every single serve was the RPS.  Try it!

Quote I think I could play at a 2000-2100 level....
What is your level?


I'm 1800.  The people at my club tell me my rating should be closer to 1900-1950, but I don't perform well in tournaments.  

This is good advice.  I should practice serves in games.  

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Hey man if you're trying to compete with players at the 2300+ level as you mentioned in your first post you're gonna need a table to practice your serves. The thing is, you may think you need deception in your serves to improve your game and this may not actually be the case. Simple but effective serves can go a long way. Do you have video or more details about your game? Just curious.

I don't have any videos of myself playing, unfortunately.  I could give more details about my play style.   

I'd classify myself as a pretty straight forward hitter.  I'm a right handed player and shakehand.  Fast and spinny rubber on both sides.  My stroke is pretty textbook (I've been told) and my footwork is average, I guess.  I often step around to my forehand for looping, although I loop from both sides.  I play somewhat aggressively and attacking early.  I can generally loop backspin to get into the point and continue hitting to finish it.  My club mates recently told me that instead of developing my serve, I've focused on perfecting my 3rd ball to the serves I already have.  They seemed optimistic about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lgxb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 3:20pm
actually you can practice your serve while sitting on a couch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by lgxb lgxb wrote:

actually you can practice your serve while sitting on a couch.

That's still not enough.  I should be able to practice my serve while laying in bed watching TV without a paddle or ball just swinging my hand.  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 4:03pm
Placement and keeping the ball low are ultimately more important than outright spin.

Focus one one serve each game and try to move it around to hit specific spots.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 4:40pm
I have learned over time that in the absence of watching the specific player who you are giving advice to, rarely does general advice hit the mark as most players are not as self aware as they think they are.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I've heard developing good serves, in general, makes your serve receive game better.  Is this the general belief? 

I really have NO way to practice serves.  The clubs I go to people just want matches and every table is full from the time we set them up until we take them down.  It's terrible.  
then just stay a little longer or come earlier. What's the problem?


Situation is not that easy. lol I'd love to come early or stay late to work on serves.  

The 2 clubs that are available, we arrive and setup the tables, then leave and take down the tables.  The gym is only available during a certain time, so players show up at the start and leave at the end.  Not much I can do.
you're playing in a club where you are a member right? Ask the guy with the key if you can pick up the key and get in early. There are ways you know


+ 1 To all this advice...

There's is no magic bullet; just practice...

How bad do you want it..?


Please understand.  This cannot happen.  I'll try to explain in more detail.[/DIiV]

  • On Wednesdays, my club is open from 6:00-9:00pm.
  • The club can only use the time we pay for. (6-9)
  • The hours CANNOT be changed to earlier than 6 or later than 9 or we'll get in trouble. 
  • At 6:00, most of the members are there and every table is taken.  
  • At 9:00, every table is still taken and we now all have to put the tables back and leave.


Well, do you think your case is so unique..?

It's time to find another enthusiastic player in your club and start using your precious time for some serious practice...

Could be a man, woman or child, but you will both have an interest in seeing each other get better...

Practice what you need to improve, don't just play games...

Yes! You need a training buddy...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lgxb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2017 at 8:04pm
You will need to explain more detail.

1. when you serve long heavy underspin, how do the 2300 opponent attack? Do they loop? If it's really low heavy underspin, it's really hard to loop. Even they loop, it will not be high quality so you can counter attack. And if you can serve fast with good placement, then it's even harder for them. So maybe your serve is not low enough, not fast enough. Even you think it's heavy underspin, maybe it's not enough.

2. if it's short serve, what do they do? banana flick? I doubt many 2300 players have high success rate with it against heavy short.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2017 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I've heard developing good serves, in general, makes your serve receive game better.  Is this the general belief? 

I really have NO way to practice serves.  The clubs I go to people just want matches and every table is full from the time we set them up until we take them down.  It's terrible.  
then just stay a little longer or come earlier. What's the problem?


Situation is not that easy. lol I'd love to come early or stay late to work on serves.  

The 2 clubs that are available, we arrive and setup the tables, then leave and take down the tables.  The gym is only available during a certain time, so players show up at the start and leave at the end.  Not much I can do.
you're playing in a club where you are a member right? Ask the guy with the key if you can pick up the key and get in early. There are ways you know


+ 1 To all this advice...

There's is no magic bullet; just practice...

How bad do you want it..?


Please understand.  This cannot happen.  I'll try to explain in more detail.[/DIiV]

  • On Wednesdays, my club is open from 6:00-9:00pm.
  • The club can only use the time we pay for. (6-9)
  • The hours CANNOT be changed to earlier than 6 or later than 9 or we'll get in trouble. 
  • At 6:00, most of the members are there and every table is taken.  
  • At 9:00, every table is still taken and we now all have to put the tables back and leave.


Well, do you think your case is so unique..?

It's time to find another enthusiastic player in your club and start using your precious time for some serious practice...

Could be a man, woman or child, but you will both have an interest in seeing each other get better...

Practice what you need to improve, don't just play games...

Yes! You need a training buddy...

Not arguing with this.  

I'm arguing with others telling me to come early/stay late so I can have my own table to practice serves on.  I'm very simply trying to point out that it's not possible in my situation.  That's all.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2017 at 2:59pm
I have to second the suggestion to try using a single serve for an entire match or even for an entire night of play.  It is especially useful if you find yourself playing mostly weaker players.  After 2 games of seeing exactly the same serve even a 1400 opponent can start returning like he is 2000+.  

The real test comes in the 5th game when you are down 9-10 to someone who has never beaten you before.  Do you have the confidence and fortitude to serve that same serve you have been giving him all the match and face the strong return with your best 3rd ball effort?   Once you can do it without a second thought you will know you own that serve.

 I half to admit that I do not always stick to the high road in those situations.  But even when I don't it is an interesting test of my serving ability to suddenly pull off a completely different serve than I have been hitting all night.

Good luck with your practice.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2017 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

I have to second the suggestion to try using a single serve for an entire match or even for an entire night of play.  It is especially useful if you find yourself playing mostly weaker players.  After 2 games of seeing exactly the same serve even a 1400 opponent can start returning like he is 2000+.  ..........
........


Nope. Unless it's topspin, after 2 games it should be so tight (consistently good) that all the 1400 receiver can do is push back meekly.
Try it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2017 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

I have to second the suggestion to try using a single serve for an entire match or even for an entire night of play.  It is especially useful if you find yourself playing mostly weaker players.  After 2 games of seeing exactly the same serve even a 1400 opponent can start returning like he is 2000+.  ..........
........


Nope. Unless it's topspin, after 2 games it should be so tight (consistently good) that all the 1400 receiver can do is push back meekly.
Try it.


Well come visit my club some time and watch the 1300 and 1400 plays tie me in knots with alternating deep pushes to the wide Fh, short drops that I can hardly reach, and flips which just seem to freeze me.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chu_bun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2017 at 7:27pm
Get two full sheet of plywoods, cut to correct size, put on top of a folding table, and you have something good enough for practice serves.  Or simply buy a cheap TT table on craigslist probably won't cost more a sheet of Tenergy. 
(Sorry didn't see your other post about purchasing a table)


Edited by chu_bun - 10/25/2017 at 7:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2017 at 8:02pm
"It's time to find another enthusiastic player in your club and start using your precious time for some serious practice...

Yes! You need a training buddy... "



And when you do find one, treat him/her better than a wife.....wives come and go but a Table Tennis sparring partner is one in a million!!!!


FdT


Edited by Fulanodetal - 10/25/2017 at 8:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2017 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I've heard developing good serves, in general, makes your serve receive game better.  Is this the general belief? 

I really have NO way to practice serves.  The clubs I go to people just want matches and every table is full from the time we set them up until we take them down.  It's terrible.  
then just stay a little longer or come earlier. What's the problem?


Situation is not that easy. lol I'd love to come early or stay late to work on serves.  

The 2 clubs that are available, we arrive and setup the tables, then leave and take down the tables.  The gym is only available during a certain time, so players show up at the start and leave at the end.  Not much I can do.
you're playing in a club where you are a member right? Ask the guy with the key if you can pick up the key and get in early. There are ways you know


+ 1 To all this advice...

There's is no magic bullet; just practice...

How bad do you want it..?


Please understand.  This cannot happen.  I'll try to explain in more detail.[/DIiV]

  • On Wednesdays, my club is open from 6:00-9:00pm.
  • The club can only use the time we pay for. (6-9)
  • The hours CANNOT be changed to earlier than 6 or later than 9 or we'll get in trouble. 
  • At 6:00, most of the members are there and every table is taken.  
  • At 9:00, every table is still taken and we now all have to put the tables back and leave.


Well, do you think your case is so unique..?

It's time to find another enthusiastic player in your club and start using your precious time for some serious practice...

Could be a man, woman or child, but you will both have an interest in seeing each other get better...

Practice what you need to improve, don't just play games...

Yes! You need a training buddy...

<span style="font-size: 12px;">
</span>
Not arguing with this.  
<span style="font-size: 12px;">
</span>
<span style="font-size: 12px;">I'm arguing with others telling me to come early/stay late so I can have my </span><b style="font-size: 12px;">own<span style="font-size: 12px;"> table to practice serves on.  I'm very simply trying to point out that it's not possible in my situation.  That's all.  </span>
you can get another club member who also wants to practice serves and then you both practice serves while ignoring each other. Look at Chinese players, they often do this. That way no one can complain that you're taking a table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2017 at 11:07pm
I feel like I need to come to Swiff's defense.  The situation in a lot of small clubs in the US is nothing like what exists in much of the world.  The club has to beg for a few hours in some one else facilities.  They often do not have enough members to financial compete with other groups for the space.  Such limited playing time combined with a majority attitude of lets go have a little fun instead of lets work hard to get better means it is really hard to find practice partners.  Put that together with the small membership in lots of clubs and it is even more difficult to find a reliable training partner.

Currently there is only one player at my club that really wants to practice with me.  Because of his schedule and club practices on table time and player rotation I get about 20 min with him once a week.  Hard to do much serious training within those limits.  I get some other players to drill with me in exchange for coaching them.  But even then there is little real training time.

Mark -A small time coach at a small time club
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2017 at 11:42pm
Or just do copy and paste to make long threads

or 
copy the good servers and paste them with your new one's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/26/2017 at 2:02am
Buy one of those small cheap robots and have it serve you underspin ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/26/2017 at 8:48am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

I feel like I need to come to Swiff's defense.  The situation in a lot of small clubs in the US is nothing like what exists in much of the world.  The club has to beg for a few hours in some one else facilities.  They often do not have enough members to financial compete with other groups for the space.  Such limited playing time combined with a majority attitude of lets go have a little fun instead of lets work hard to get better means it is really hard to find practice partners.  Put that together with the small membership in lots of clubs and it is even more difficult to find a reliable training partner.

Currently there is only one player at my club that really wants to practice with me.  Because of his schedule and club practices on table time and player rotation I get about 20 min with him once a week.  Hard to do much serious training within those limits.  I get some other players to drill with me in exchange for coaching them.  But even then there is little real training time.

Mark -A small time coach at a small time club
there's no need to defend him. We are not saying he is bad for not doing it, we are only pointing out that he could do it. If he really wants it then he'll find a way. It's just a question about wether he wants it or not. Don't say you want when in reality you don't want to. The mindset is important!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/26/2017 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

I feel like I need to come to Swiff's defense.  The situation in a lot of small clubs in the US is nothing like what exists in much of the world.  The club has to beg for a few hours in some one else facilities.  They often do not have enough members to financial compete with other groups for the space.  Such limited playing time combined with a majority attitude of lets go have a little fun instead of lets work hard to get better means it is really hard to find practice partners.  Put that together with the small membership in lots of clubs and it is even more difficult to find a reliable training partner.

Currently there is only one player at my club that really wants to practice with me.  Because of his schedule and club practices on table time and player rotation I get about 20 min with him once a week.  Hard to do much serious training within those limits.  I get some other players to drill with me in exchange for coaching them.  But even then there is little real training time.

Mark -A small time coach at a small time club
there's no need to defend him. We are not saying he is bad for not doing it, we are only pointing out that he could do it. If he really wants it then he'll find a way. It's just a question about wether he wants it or not. Don't say you want when in reality you don't want to. The mindset is important!

I'm not sure if it counts as defending, but it's very useful to point out to some of advice givers that they   have no idea what they are talking about: "get a key to the club", "find a practice partner", "get a table for yourself" does not work in most situations in the middle of TT desert areas, that is most of US. 

I suspect mjamja understands OP's situation much better than our esteemed TT gurus from Germany and elsewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/26/2017 at 10:52am
It's tricky, to say the least.  

Practicing serves at my club, for reasons mentioned above, just won't happen.  That's just the way it works where I live.  Even if I could find someone to practice with, the club owner and other members expect us to play a match when we get on the table.  Just practicing serves would be frowned upon.

I do agree with the general attitude "wherever there's a will, there's a way".  Determination is everything.  Maybe practicing at my club won't work.  But I will buy a cheap table for the basement and just practice there.  I'm not so poor I can't buy a cheap-o table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/26/2017 at 10:54am
Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

It's tricky, to say the least.  

Practicing serves at my club, for reasons mentioned above, just won't happen.  That's just the way it works where I live.  Even if I could find someone to practice with, the club owner and other members expect us to play a match when we get on the table.  Just practicing serves would be frowned upon.

I do agree with the general attitude "wherever there's a will, there's a way".  Determination is everything.  Maybe practicing at my club won't work.  But I will buy a cheap table for the basement and just practice there.  I'm not so poor I can't buy a cheap-o table.
👍🏻 that's a good way. Good luck on improving
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/26/2017 at 3:19pm
"Practicing serves at my club, for reasons mentioned above, just won't happen. That's just the way it works where I live. Even if I could find someone to practice with, the club owner and other members expect us to play a match when we get on the table. Just practicing serves would be frowned upon."

Is this a club where you pay to play? If two paying customers want to use their table time on drills, why is it the business of others?

As long as everyone gets equal table time, nobody should care.

I have never been a paying club customer and had the owner tell people what to do. If the club is crowded and there are people waiting, the owner will keep track of time and ask the players who have been playing the longest to stop after 15-20 min or so.

btw, if you want a cheap diy solution for the basement, you can buy baltic birch plywood in 5' X 5' sheets. Cut 6 inches off an end and you have half a table. Put the halves on a 6 foot long folding table like the ones you can get at home depot. I did something like this when I was a kid. Works fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/26/2017 at 8:42pm
I feel like the serve/receive game is the strongest part of my game and most agree.  I've never had a good server to regularly practice against.  I think it's just because I've played with serving so long that I know what to look for.  I have an idea what you can do with each motion.  I know that a high toss serve is easy to put top on, but takes a lot of skill to put backspin on and is unlikely at my level.  Stuff like that.

maybe there's a bar or rec center or somewhere like that you can practice.
W6 fl with Illumina 1.8

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/26/2017 at 10:47pm
I bought a table just to practice serves on it. It's not that expensive either, no biggie.
Also for robot practice later on, but yeah..
Blades:
Palio King Yue (82g), Liu Shiwen ZLF (84g)

FH Rubber: 729 Battle II
BH Rubber: 729 Battle II
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iamj8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/28/2017 at 7:56am
While on the topic of service receive, does anyone have any tips on how to increase strength in the banana flick?

Tips in terms of both in-game (actual stroke) and out of game (exercises). 
A version of Hurricane 3
A version of Tenergy
A Stiga blade...
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