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FITeT: Cheaters No Passaran !!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:56pm
if a national federation has decided that the test is valid to assess the validity
 of a rubber .... it will certainly be the federation that is wrong not the rubber
that is irregular ... I think it is logical!LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

"I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. "

If I ran tourneys in the US, I would never use such a tester, because I would likely lose any lawsuit. A smart high school kid taking physics can poke many holes in this tester.

In addition to the 3 I already mentioned, mfr tolerances for the incline plane angle, weight and friction of the mass, there's more.

There is no accounting for temp and humidity. The ITTF document on LP says:

"The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied."

Note in the TEST LABORATORY where it is an air conditioned space.

Doing this test in real world conditions with varying temp and humidity makes this tester junk science. The ITTF test was never designed to do this.

It is entirely possible to have a rubber pass this tester at low humidity and have it fail at high humidity.

So in just a few minutes, I have come up with many variables which will affect the "test". I am sure others will come up with more.


Out of curiosity, are you vigorously objecting to the test implementation or the principle of testing for minimal LP friction itself?  


I play smooth rubber, but have goofed around with LP. I play many LP players and don't care what friction they have. I have no strong opinion one way or the other.

I do have a strong opinion about junk science. This "tester" has way too many issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:46pm
the test works because the difference between a frictionless and a regular lp in terms 
of friction is so big that it can not keep a large part of marginal components under
control. It is as if the time to measure the thickness of a rubber should be kept in mind the
tenth decimal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

"I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. "

If I ran tourneys in the US, I would never use such a tester, because I would likely lose any lawsuit. A smart high school kid taking physics can poke many holes in this tester.

In addition to the 3 I already mentioned, mfr tolerances for the incline plane angle, weight and friction of the mass, there's more.

There is no accounting for temp and humidity. The ITTF document on LP says:

"The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied."

Note in the TEST LABORATORY where it is an air conditioned space.

Doing this test in real world conditions with varying temp and humidity makes this tester junk science. The ITTF test was never designed to do this.

It is entirely possible to have a rubber pass this tester at low humidity and have it fail at high humidity.

So in just a few minutes, I have come up with many variables which will affect the "test". I am sure others will come up with more.

Out of curiosity, are you vigorously objecting to the test implementation or the principle of testing for minimal LP friction itself?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:41pm
the question is that in Italia and not only in Italia it works like this:
in order to play sanctioned tournaments you must be registered with the f.i.t.e.t.
at the time you sign up, you accept the regulation imposed by the fitet.
If the fitet puts in the regulation that your racket must pass this test, by registering 
you have accepted the test. Alternatively you can play tournaments under other federations but are NOT registered
to I.t.t.f. and therefore are only amateur.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:31pm
"I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. "

If I ran tourneys in the US, I would never use such a tester, because I would likely lose any lawsuit. A smart high school kid taking physics can poke many holes in this tester.

In addition to the 3 I already mentioned, mfr tolerances for the incline plane angle, weight and friction of the mass, there's more.

There is no accounting for temp and humidity. The ITTF document on LP says:

"The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied."

Note in the TEST LABORATORY where it is an air conditioned space.

Doing this test in real world conditions with varying temp and humidity makes this tester junk science. The ITTF test was never designed to do this.

It is entirely possible to have a rubber pass this tester at low humidity and have it fail at high humidity.

So in just a few minutes, I have come up with many variables which will affect the "test". I am sure others will come up with more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

I apologize for your frankness:
these arguments are those of those who use irregular tires and look
 for every grip to continue using them, there is nothing to add
No, my tires are all GoodYear Eagle F1's and they are all regular LOL LOL LOL LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

I apologize for your frankness:
these arguments are those of those who use irregular tires and look
 for every grip to continue using them, there is nothing to add
No, my tires are all GoodYear Eagle F1's and they are all regular LOL LOL LOL LOL


Edited by Pushblocker - 04/13/2018 at 1:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:49pm

Such tests would actually enforce a ACTUAL rule.. The friction test does not as there is no rule that says that "x amount of friction" is required when used. There just is no set limit and if there is no set limit, you can't have a test for an imaginary limit that does not exist. Lack of friction is not proof of treatment just like if I can't walk a straight line is not proof that I'm drunk.. Taking a breathalizer or blood test is proof that someone is drunk. Just because someone "acts" drunk is not proof that someone is drunk. Just because a rubber appears treated is no proof that it is treated.

I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. 

Due process has to be followed.. The AGM must pass rule changes, not the BoD. The friction regulation was exclusively passed by the BoD with no accompanying rule changes.


I apologize for your frankness: these arguments are those of those who use irregular tires and look
 for every grip to continue using them, there is nothing to add


Edited by andras - 04/13/2018 at 1:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

You make an assumption that the aging will be consistent across the rubber surface; did you have a rubber band at home LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

C'mon, ITTF covers that too
2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface
you highlighted "accidental damage" but ignored "wear". What I'm talking about is WEAR!
Now, you are playing stupid LOL
 



Edited by Egghead - 04/13/2018 at 3:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:40pm

Since the same discussion has been dragging on the Italian forum for years,
 I would like to point out that ITTF rules seem to have been made NOT to lead to
anything since I can often be interpreted in many ways according to how it is more
 convenient. One of the main hopes of the introduction of the bat tester is precisely to push
ITTF to the formulation of a regulation that obliges manufacturers to provide us
with non-modifiable materials or that obliges EVERYONE to undergo clear and reliable tests.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

I hardly ever see anyone complain.. just tons of players participating in those threads.. If I start a thread about treating pips, the entire world would start attacking me.. Double Standard..
I understand where you are coming from but maybe those cheaters never say they break no rule. I don't know Embarrassed


Edited by Egghead - 04/13/2018 at 1:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

In fact the same person who created the bat tester is working on a booster test and one for the
 silicone spray / cleaners. I contacted him asking him to intervene in the discussion to
give more precise informationThumbs Up
Such tests would actually enforce a ACTUAL rule.. The friction test does not as there is no rule that says that "x amount of friction" is required when used. There just is no set limit and if there is no set limit, you can't have a test for an imaginary limit that does not exist. Lack of friction is not proof of treatment just like if I can't walk a straight line is not proof that I'm drunk.. Taking a breathalizer or blood test is proof that someone is drunk. Just because someone "acts" drunk is not proof that someone is drunk. Just because a rubber appears treated is no proof that it is treated.

I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. 

Due process has to be followed.. The AGM must pass rule changes, not the BoD. The friction regulation was exclusively passed by the BoD with no accompanying rule changes.


Edited by Pushblocker - 04/13/2018 at 1:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:35pm
There are many obvious technical questions about this measuring device:

There are at least 3 items of variability.

The incline angle, the weight, and the coefficient of friction of the weight.

All have some manufacturing variability. For example, the incline angle will be X plus or minus Y degrees. What are X and Y and how was it determined that X and Y are good enough values? In usage, how often is X measured to make sure it is within spec?

In comparison, if you buy a $400 golf club off the shelf, the mfr quotes a plus or minus 1 degree in specs. So if you buy a 9 degree loft driver, it is actually anywhere between 8 and 10 degrees. Is this friction tester made with better tolerances than a $400 golf club? Probably not.

It looks like it is made of plastic. Plastic expands with heat and contracts with cold. What happens if you leave this thing in a hot/cold car? I would expect it to deform when left in a hot car. What happens if you sit on it or drop it?

The weight and COF of the weight also have ranges. Taken with variability of the incline angle, there are 3 tolerances that must accounted for to arrive at a friction number of F plus or minus uncertainty. What exactly is the uncertainty number?

What are the exact numbers for F on the scale for the color yellow?

Without knowing about the above issues and a detailed explanation of operational test procedures I would rate this tester as unproven and not use it for anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Exactly. This rule will apply only if the wear is not consistent across the surface. We are all tt players here. We all know that the wear will never be consistent across the rubber surface after the rubber had been used. Why ?? It is because we only used part of the rubber. And, as mentioned earlier, the rubber shall have many shades of red or black.

With that, this rule will always apply on used rubber.
The wear is not from hitting the ball but from rubber aging. I have posted a link on rubber aging in this thread already.. 
You make an assumption that the aging will be consistent across the rubber surface; did you have a rubber band at home LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

C'mon, ITTF covers that too
2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface



you highlighted "accidental damage" but ignored "wear". What I'm talking about is WEAR!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:30pm
In fact the same person who created the bat tester is working on a booster test and one for the
 silicone spray / cleaners. I contacted him asking him to intervene in the discussion to
give more precise informationThumbs Up


Edited by andras - 04/13/2018 at 1:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Exactly. This rule will apply only if the wear is not consistent across the surface. We are all tt players here. We all know that the wear will never be consistent across the rubber surface after the rubber had been used. Why ?? It is because we only used part of the rubber. And, as mentioned earlier, the rubber shall have many shades of red or black.

With that, this rule will always apply on used rubber.
The wear is not from hitting the ball but from rubber aging. I have posted a link on rubber aging in this thread already.. 
You make an assumption that the aging will be consistent across the rubber surface; did you have a rubber band at home LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

C'mon, ITTF covers that too
2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different from using a regular LP nobody would have problems playing with a regular LP. Evidently it is not like that.This is enough and make the test necessary.
The vast majority of high level players are ILLEGALLY boosting. They are doing this to improve their rubbers abilities. Where are the tests that detect oils etc. used ? I'm talking about non VOC boosting.. It's still illegal and creates and advantage and yet, there are no tests for it.. Many or most players here are boosting.
two wrongs do not make one right LOL

I hardly ever see anyone complain.. just tons of players participating in those threads.. If I start a thread about treating pips, the entire world would start attacking me.. Double Standard..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

also for this reason UV aging is used for antitop not for LPs.
Exposure to the sun for LPs serves only as an excuse not to say 
the real treatment that is through chemicals and fixers.
So, why not create a test to test for chemicals and fixers? That would actually be appropriate and i would 100% support such test.. Silicone spray does wonders for some players... Spray it on, wipe it off and it's not visible and makes the rubber super slick.. Nobody is testing for that.. That's actually treatment.. Playing outdoors and/or natural rubber aging is not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:21pm
also for this reason UV aging is used for antitop not for LPs.
Exposure to the sun for LPs serves only as an excuse not to say 
the real treatment that is through chemicals and fixers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different from using a regular LP nobody would have problems playing with a regular LP. Evidently it is not like that.This is enough and make the test necessary.
The vast majority of high level players are ILLEGALLY boosting. They are doing this to improve their rubbers abilities. Where are the tests that detect oils etc. used ? I'm talking about non VOC boosting.. It's still illegal and creates and advantage and yet, there are no tests for it.. Many or most players here are boosting.
two wrongs do not make one right LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

The sun dry the rubber with the
LP if you expose them only to the sun you have a
harder rubber that absorbs less the incoming ball.The well-made LP frictionelss are very slippery and very soft because they have more control for push and it's easier to hold the short block.
Actually, "sun-exposed" LPs (without any other treatment) are so brittle that they will not last couple matches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different 
from using a regular LP nobody would have problems playing with a regular LP. Evidently it is not like that. This is enough and make the test necessary.
The vast majority of high level players are ILLEGALLY boosting. They are doing this to improve their rubbers abilities. Where are the tests that detect oils etc. used ? I'm talking about non VOC boosting.. It's still illegal and creates and advantage and yet, there are no tests for it.. Many or most players here are boosting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

As previously mentioned, "2.04.07.01" did DeadDeadDeadDeadDead
As I pointed out, 2.04.07.01 only applies if the rubber is no longer uniform due to damage or wear. If a rubber is still uniform and the wear is consistent across the surface, this rule does not apply.
Exactly. This rule will apply only if the wear is not consistent across the surface. We are all tt players here. We all know that the wear will never be consistent across the rubber surface after the rubber had been used. Why ?? It is because we only used part of the rubber. And, as mentioned earlier, the rubber shall have many shades of red or black.

With that, this rule will always apply on used rubber.
The wear is not from hitting the ball but from rubber aging. I have posted a link on rubber aging in this thread already.. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:04pm
I also play often against both frictionless and anti frictionless lp and 
I have no problem playing with it, but the fact remains that at this moment the
frictionless lp are irregular.
you can also play basketball with your feet but I do not think in a tournament they let you do it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:00pm
in the video, it's not me.
I tried with my friend's racket playing with frictionless the result was the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 12:29pm
Question about the video.  Is the black sheet of pips that fails is even glued to the racket?  It appears to be just lying on the top of some other rubber, and not even cut to fit the racket.  I could be wrong, I'm trying to watch from work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 12:23pm
[QUOTE=andras]
if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different 
from using a regular LP nobody would have problems playing with a regular LP. Evidently it is not like that. This is enough and make the test necessary.
(QUOTE)

Pushblocker has been treating LP's to make them frictionless for years.
He has admitted to doing it and selling them, and has said that he only does it for
training purposes.

I actually prefer playing against frictionless LP's.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 12:02pm
if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different 
from using a regular LP nobody would have problems playing with a regular LP. Evidently it is not like that. This is enough and make the test necessary.



Edited by andras - 04/13/2018 at 12:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 11:54am
Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Although I admire the Italian association for taking steps to reduce rule breaking, I do have a couple of concerns:

1.  Is this problem so great in Italy that it needs a solution? Here in the U.S., if you are a rising junior, it is somewhat of a rite of passage to get through good 2200-2300-ish LP blockers ex. Robert Shanazari, John Wetzler, and of course our forum's very own Pushblocker.  If you are a good junior and can't get through this style, you have a serious deficiency that needs to be addressed.  And if you are a recreational player that can't get through this style, then you just take the loss and move on to the next match.  If I entered a tournament or team league match in Italy, how many of these LP users am I going to encounter?
LOL, it has nothing to do with the style LOLLOLLOLLOL

Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

2.  I saw the video for the test and I read the comment from andras.  So ok, you say less than a second is considered frictionless so the rubber fails.  If the weight slides 5 seconds, it's not slippery enough so it passes.  What is the pass/fail point? Is 2 seconds ok? What about 1.5 seconds? 
There is a bar at the side. I believe that they will re-test it if the rubber barely fails.

Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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