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FITeT: Cheaters No Passaran !! |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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if a national federation has decided that the test is valid to assess the validity
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qpskfec
Silver Member Joined: 07/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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I play smooth rubber, but have goofed around with LP. I play many LP players and don't care what friction they have. I have no strong opinion one way or the other. I do have a strong opinion about junk science. This "tester" has way too many issues. |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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the test works because the difference between a frictionless and a regular lp in terms
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 1310 |
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Out of curiosity, are you vigorously objecting to the test implementation or the principle of testing for minimal LP friction itself?
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USATT: ~1810
Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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the question is that in Italia and not only in Italia it works like this:
in order to play sanctioned tournaments you must be registered with the f.i.t.e.t.
at the time you sign up, you accept the regulation imposed by the fitet.
If the fitet puts in the regulation that your racket must pass this test, by registering
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qpskfec
Silver Member Joined: 07/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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"I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. "
If I ran tourneys in the US, I would never use such a tester, because I would likely lose any lawsuit. A smart high school kid taking physics can poke many holes in this tester. In addition to the 3 I already mentioned, mfr tolerances for the incline plane angle, weight and friction of the mass, there's more. There is no accounting for temp and humidity. The ITTF document on LP says: "The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied." Note in the TEST LABORATORY where it is an air conditioned space. Doing this test in real world conditions with varying temp and humidity makes this tester junk science. The ITTF test was never designed to do this. It is entirely possible to have a rubber pass this tester at low humidity and have it fail at high humidity. So in just a few minutes, I have come up with many variables which will affect the "test". I am sure others will come up with more. |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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No, my tires are all GoodYear Eagle F1's and they are all regular
Edited by Pushblocker - 04/13/2018 at 1:55pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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Such tests would actually enforce a ACTUAL rule.. The friction test
does not as there is no rule that says that "x amount of friction" is
required when used. There just is no set limit and if there is no set
limit, you can't have a test for an imaginary limit that does not exist.
Lack of friction is not proof of treatment just like if I can't walk a
straight line is not proof that I'm drunk.. Taking a breathalizer or
blood test is proof that someone is drunk. Just because someone "acts"
drunk is not proof that someone is drunk. Just because a rubber appears
treated is no proof that it is treated. I
personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone
being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will
have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a
imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love
to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that
it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in
the US, it is fairly easy.. Due process has to
be followed.. The AGM must pass rule changes, not the BoD. The friction
regulation was exclusively passed by the BoD with no accompanying rule
changes.
Edited by andras - 04/13/2018 at 1:50pm |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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Now, you are playing stupid
Edited by Egghead - 04/13/2018 at 3:57pm |
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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Since the same discussion has been dragging on the Italian forum for years,
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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I understand where you are coming from but maybe those cheaters never say they break no rule. I don't know
Edited by Egghead - 04/13/2018 at 1:38pm |
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Such tests would actually enforce a ACTUAL rule.. The friction test does not as there is no rule that says that "x amount of friction" is required when used. There just is no set limit and if there is no set limit, you can't have a test for an imaginary limit that does not exist. Lack of friction is not proof of treatment just like if I can't walk a straight line is not proof that I'm drunk.. Taking a breathalizer or blood test is proof that someone is drunk. Just because someone "acts" drunk is not proof that someone is drunk. Just because a rubber appears treated is no proof that it is treated. I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. Due process has to be followed.. The AGM must pass rule changes, not the BoD. The friction regulation was exclusively passed by the BoD with no accompanying rule changes.
Edited by Pushblocker - 04/13/2018 at 1:41pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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qpskfec
Silver Member Joined: 07/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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There are many obvious technical questions about this measuring device:
There are at least 3 items of variability. The incline angle, the weight, and the coefficient of friction of the weight. All have some manufacturing variability. For example, the incline angle will be X plus or minus Y degrees. What are X and Y and how was it determined that X and Y are good enough values? In usage, how often is X measured to make sure it is within spec? In comparison, if you buy a $400 golf club off the shelf, the mfr quotes a plus or minus 1 degree in specs. So if you buy a 9 degree loft driver, it is actually anywhere between 8 and 10 degrees. Is this friction tester made with better tolerances than a $400 golf club? Probably not. It looks like it is made of plastic. Plastic expands with heat and contracts with cold. What happens if you leave this thing in a hot/cold car? I would expect it to deform when left in a hot car. What happens if you sit on it or drop it? The weight and COF of the weight also have ranges. Taken with variability of the incline angle, there are 3 tolerances that must accounted for to arrive at a friction number of F plus or minus uncertainty. What exactly is the uncertainty number? What are the exact numbers for F on the scale for the color yellow? Without knowing about the above issues and a detailed explanation of operational test procedures I would rate this tester as unproven and not use it for anything. |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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you highlighted "accidental damage" but ignored "wear". What I'm talking about is WEAR!
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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In fact the same person who created the bat tester is working on a booster test and one for the
Edited by andras - 04/13/2018 at 1:31pm |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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You make an assumption that the aging will be consistent across the rubber surface; did you have a rubber band at home C'mon, ITTF covers that too 2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface |
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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I hardly ever see anyone complain.. just tons of players participating in those threads.. If I start a thread about treating pips, the entire world would start attacking me.. Double Standard..
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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also for this reason UV aging is used for antitop not for LPs.
Exposure to the sun for LPs serves only as an excuse not to say
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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two wrongs do not make one right
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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Actually, "sun-exposed" LPs (without any other treatment) are so brittle that they will not last couple matches.
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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The wear is not from hitting the ball but from rubber aging. I have posted a link on rubber aging in this thread already..
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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I also play often against both frictionless and anti frictionless lp and |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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in the video, it's not me.
I tried with my friend's racket playing with frictionless the result was the same.
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1dennistt
Silver Member Joined: 03/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 533 |
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Question about the video. Is the black sheet of pips that fails is even glued to the racket? It appears to be just lying on the top of some other rubber, and not even cut to fit the racket. I could be wrong, I'm trying to watch from work.
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Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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[QUOTE=andras]
if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different Edited by andras - 04/13/2018 at 12:03pm |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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LOL, it has nothing to do with the style
There is a bar at the side. I believe that they will re-test it if the rubber barely fails. |
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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