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what do you picture as you execute your strokes ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PythonMonty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 10:28pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

I read something about speed, spin and power a few years ago. I can't remember if it was liu guoliang commenting on his players, or just someone writing. If I remember correctly liu guoliang talked about want liquin, ma lin and wang hao. He said that wang liquin has power and speed, but lacks spin. Whilst ma Lin had speed and spin, but was lacking power. Wang hao was the next generation combining all three elements in his forehand. Couldn't find it online, but maybe someone also read this and remembers.

I've read this, or something like it, and it's not the only time I've heard pro coaches or players talking about power as something different from speed plus spin. I don't doubt that they're making some kind of meaningful observation but it's hard to know what it is because strictly speaking it's nonsense. A ball flying through the air can have speed (translational momentum) and spin (rotational momentum). And for practical purposes (ignoring energy gained and lost as heat as the ball deforms on impact with racket and table and then resumes its round shape), that's all there is. This basic physics is directly connected to the feel of the ball as it hits your racket. A "heavy" ball feels heavy because it's moving very fast, or because it's spinning very fast, or some combination of both. And that's it. There's no other mysterious extra component of power that could cause your racket to shake more when blocking for FZD versus Harimoto...

...unless by power you mean something that doesn't belong to the moving ball itself. Such as where it lands on the table. Or on your racket. Or how quickly off the bounce it was hit. Or how ready you are to receive it. A deceptive, off the bounce shot that lands deep on the table can "overpower" you more easily than a faster, spinnier shot that you're ready and waiting for. But that's just a figure of speech.

So I'm still left wondering what you and LGL are talking about because it seems interesting. But power is the wrong word for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 11:42pm
There's basically just a few elements to shot quality, i.e how early the opponent hits it, how much power (ball speed+spin), and the spin to speed ratio, and of course placement. It's not rocket science. It's much harder to block incoming topspins with very high levels of spin and speed (which is usually what is described as high power shots).

Harimoto's shots are taken earlier which is why it appears faster, but doesn't necessarily have a lot of power especially compared to guys like Fan Zhendong for e.g... I believe if you compare the balls coming from Harimoto and Fan Zhendong, Fan Zhendong also imparts a lot more spin onto the ball compared to Harimoto at the same ball speeds which makes it "heavier".

I believe lots of interviews are mistranslated because words in the Chinese language have many subtleties which don't translate well...

Edited by blahness - 10/05/2018 at 11:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PythonMonty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 12:44am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

There's basically just a few elements to shot quality, i.e how early the opponent hits it, how much power (ball speed+spin), and the spin to speed ratio, and of course placement.

Spin to speed ratio is my favorite candidate for the mythical non-spin non-speed component of power. A ball with a low spin to speed ratio can have surprisingly little energy, as I'm reminded every time I dump a fast long dead ball serve into the net. And high spin to speed ratio shots can be a lot more powerful than they seem which is why blocking for higher level players than you're used to playing can be so tricky. I'd guess FZD's shots are heavier than Harimoto's because of mostly invisible extra spin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 3:58am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

There's basically just a few elements to shot quality, i.e how early the opponent hits it, how much power (ball speed+spin), and the spin to speed ratio, and of course placement. It's not rocket science. It's much harder to block incoming topspins with very high levels of spin and speed (which is usually what is described as high power shots).

Harimoto's shots are taken earlier which is why it appears faster, but doesn't necessarily have a lot of power especially compared to guys like Fan Zhendong for e.g... I believe if you compare the balls coming from Harimoto and Fan Zhendong, Fan Zhendong also imparts a lot more spin onto the ball compared to Harimoto at the same ball speeds which makes it "heavier".

I believe lots of interviews are mistranslated because words in the Chinese language have many subtleties which don't translate well...
you can't play fast and with a lot of spin. You can play a mix of both, but it'll be slower than someone playing fast. Marcos Freitas said something like that when reviewing his blade on tabletennisdaily's channel.

Since physic are getting addressed here, I'd like to ask a question. The ball loses a lot of spin and speed on its way to the opponent, especially with the plastic ball. Lets just say there are two topspins. Both have the same speed, but one has way more spin. How does the spin influence the loss of speed and spin to the other side of the table? if you put more spin on the ball, does it slow the ball down even more in the air or less? Of course power is the wrong word from a scientifically standpoint. But then a lot of things that were discussed on the forum over the years would also just be pseudoscience. And I'll say this again. When talking about table tennis the feelings have a big impact on how we perceive things. If we look at equipment for example. There might be tiny difference in blades or rubbers or woods, which would almost be irrelevant. Yet when talking about them we can really feel huge differences between them. The dwell from an allwood compared to an alc for example. There is slightly more dwell time on the allwood. But when playing with an allwood it almost feels like the ball is staying 1-2 seconds longer on the racket.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 5:21am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:


Since physic are getting addressed here, I'd like to ask a question. The ball loses a lot of spin and speed on its way to the opponent, especially with the plastic ball. Lets just say there are two topspins. Both have the same speed, but one has way more spin. How does the spin influence the loss of speed and spin to the other side of the table? if you put more spin on the ball, does it slow the ball down even more in the air or less?


the one with more topspin will be faster for sure. Topspin ball always "jumps" forward after bouncing on the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 6:20am
@balldance
I might have worded my question wrong. I'm not asking which ball is faster when it bounces on the table. What I'm asking is how the spin influences the loss of speed and spin in the air. So if more spin has a positive or negative influence to the air resistance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 6:24am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Wow, that is just the opposite of everything I was taught about the Bh.

But if it works for you then that is great. Sometimes different key thoughts work for different players.

I visualize my hand/forearm as a door with the hinge at the elbow. The door closes in front of me as I backswing and then opens as I swing forward.

Thanks NEVER loops with his back hand. Apparently he forgets that as well.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 6:27am
Sorry, Mark you never loop with the backhand!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 6:29am
Originally posted by Lightzy Lightzy wrote:

boobs


As bad as my back hand is, this may be my problem as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 6:54am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:


Maybe instead of power we should think more in terms of total energy. The ball has both energy due to its linear motion and from its rotational motion. How difficult it is to return is a result of the combination of the two.

Mark
I believe in linear and rotational energy as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 8:05am
When my stroke falls apart on the forehand, it's usually due to too much arm vs body turn so I picture myself turning my torso. If I need extra enforcement I picture and hear Chubby Checker doing "The Twist." 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 11:48am
Many coaches disagree but I keep swearing by "speed is king, speed is better than spin, spin is speed's helper."

I should say the ball is king and we must do what it wants but before we need to define what that is: the ball wants to land on the other side and not come back. From its perspective, it wants to be free, get away from the table and live its ball's life not being struck again and again. If we want to be good people, we have to help the ball realize its dream and for that, speed is best. Spin borrows from speed helping the ball land on the table and more spin than necessary to achieve that is a waste of speed, it means more time for the opponent to get in position. 

We can control incoming spin with technique, bat angle, following through the block and all, but we can't deal with a ball faster than our brain and footwork.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:


I always wondering this as well. People talk about speed and power like they are two separate things. I don't get it. If speed means the speed of the ball, then what is power?


Speed and spin, in varying quantities, If a player with 'more power' goes for spin and less pace, that is what he gets, if he goes for pace and spin, the same. Timo Boll. Visually you should think about where you intend to put the ball, but I think the op is talking about style.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Many coaches disagree but I keep swearing by "speed is king, speed is better than spin, spin is speed's helper."

I should say the ball is king and we must do what it wants but before we need to define what that is: the ball wants to land on the other side and not come back. From its perspective, it wants to be free, get away from the table and live its ball's life not being struck again and again. If we want to be good people, we have to help the ball realize its dream and for that, speed is best. Spin borrows from speed helping the ball land on the table and more spin than necessary to achieve that is a waste of speed, it means more time for the opponent to get in position. 

We can control incoming spin with technique, bat angle, following through the block and all, but we can't deal with a ball faster than our brain and footwork.

edit: I like to simplify things and the above helps me to get a clear picture of what I really want. When I can't build a simple model like this one, I take the risk of confusing myself. Adding the "power" factor in the equation confuses me but I get away with what was written earlier in the thread: power is just a favorable combo of speed and spin at a given time and is inversely proportional to the opponents' capability to deal with what's coming at them.



that approach is way too easy and not complete. I could also say if you go for speed in a match then one only has to get the bat behind the ball and that's it. But when you play spin the opponent has to adjust to the amount of spin you put on the ball. If you can play with really heavy spin and a good length, then it is almost impossible for your opponent to win the point. The only thing he can do is block back, if he even manages to do that, and even if he does you basically won the point. And in matches spin is always better than speed. A really good spin can't be countered. I always knew that spin was good, but recently I really understood why spin is "that" good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Many coaches disagree but I keep swearing by "speed is king, speed is better than spin, spin is speed's helper."

I should say the ball is king and we must do what it wants but before we need to define what that is: the ball wants to land on the other side and not come back. From its perspective, it wants to be free, get away from the table and live its ball's life not being struck again and again. If we want to be good people, we have to help the ball realize its dream and for that, speed is best. Spin borrows from speed helping the ball land on the table and more spin than necessary to achieve that is a waste of speed, it means more time for the opponent to get in position. 

We can control incoming spin with technique, bat angle, following through the block and all, but we can't deal with a ball faster than our brain and footwork.

 Very true, but that added spin with pace gives your brain less time to work the bat angle out!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Many coaches disagree but I keep swearing by "speed is king, speed is better than spin, spin is speed's helper."

I should say the ball is king and we must do what it wants but before we need to define what that is: the ball wants to land on the other side and not come back. From its perspective, it wants to be free, get away from the table and live its ball's life not being struck again and again. If we want to be good people, we have to help the ball realize its dream and for that, speed is best. Spin borrows from speed helping the ball land on the table and more spin than necessary to achieve that is a waste of speed, it means more time for the opponent to get in position. 

We can control incoming spin with technique, bat angle, following through the block and all, but we can't deal with a ball faster than our brain and footwork.

edit: I like to simplify things and the above helps me to get a clear picture of what I really want. When I can't build a simple model like this one, I take the risk of confusing myself. Adding the "power" factor in the equation confuses me but I get away with what was written earlier in the thread: power is just a favorable combo of speed and spin at a given time and is inversely proportional to the opponents' capability to deal with what's coming at them.



that approach is way too easy and not complete. I could also say if you go for speed in a match then one only has to get the bat behind the ball and that's it. But when you play spin the opponent has to adjust to the amount of spin you put on the ball. If you can play with really heavy spin and a good length, then it is almost impossible for your opponent to win the point. The only thing he can do is block back, if he even manages to do that, and even if he does you basically won the point. And in matches spin is always better than speed. A really good spin can't be countered. I always knew that spin was good, but recently I really understood why spin is "that" good.
It's easier to learn how to better deal with spin than being faster. Dealing with spin is barain work and the physical force involved is close to nil; any human being can learn how to adjust to spin; it's far to be the same with speed. 
Simple is complex sometimes and I try building something that is simple and encompasses a wide range of the game at the same time. You are going for complexity for the sake of getting the big picture and the danger is to land in intellectual masturbation instead of keeping it simple. From what I said, you can vary/increase the amount of spin depending of your personality but whatever you choose, speed will always be the key factor. Spin is good only for those who cannot deal with it, I can't pretend that my spin scares people my level but a fast ball placed where my opponent can't get to will beat people far above mine.
To each their own I guess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 1:29pm
And speed is only good at a certain pace. Who are we kidding? Of course speed at the pro level wins, but we are talking about normal table tennis. To win with speed you really need to play fast, like really fast. Also dealing with speed is easier imo. I can easily put my racked in front of the ball against a 2500 player, but once they loop with spin it's game over.

Edited by Tt Gold - 10/06/2018 at 1:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 1:30pm
OK you win.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2018 at 1:40pm
It's not about winning. If speed works out for that's fine, but for most people speed won't work. There are so many positive aspects of playing with spin.
You automatically have more consistently, better placement and play more calmly. The risk your running into with speed is that you tense up in games, which will decrease the speed in your shot. You'll often only play the ball on the table without placement and since you always need to be in perfect position to play with speed your consistency will also drop. Of course I'm talking about the shots were both players still haven't taken full control over the point. Once your opponent is in a defensive position, most of the time it is better to kill than to play spin.
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