Supinate vs Pronate

With both these strokes, you don't even need to watch the blade angle, you can already see the forearm rotating physically from the slowmo. It's clearly supination (clockwise rotation from FZD's perspective). I play the chiquita myself, and it's almost all supination. 

Hi blahness,

there is an explanation where I meant you should take a look at:

P.S. 

Sorry for my poor english 

Hi Valiantsin, the wrist movement from Fan Zhendong also includes a fair deal of wrist flexion/extension which also changes the blade angle. Pronation/supination has nothing to do with the wrist to forearm angle, because it's internal rotation of the forearm itself (which is why it's notoriously difficult to spot) and is not a wrist action. You can pronate without moving your wrist at all. 

TT Gold recently uploaded a video which includes this gem here at 6:44 onwards explaining pronation in the FH.

Ergo he opens the face by about 30-40 degrees giving some pronation. Pronation is the action of opening the face not where it ends up relative to flat

Just took a closer look at it.

Here you should take a look on palm relatively to elbow not "BH face would be facing the ceiling" and again Dmitry is mostly supinates while Fan is pronating and supinating according to situation.

That video together with video of me showed the start and finish positions from where it was easy to see the pronation on BH.

But again if you see and do not believe who am I to insist)))?

 

While I think your request is reasonable, I think the focus on the time the racket is in contact with the ball reflects a common misperception that what the racket itself does at the ball isn't influenced by what is done before and after contact.  When you hit a ball, what happens at contact while short is fully determined by what happens before you hit the ball and what happens after you hit the ball since the stroke is a continuous function and not a digital input.  

So blahness isn't going to start pronating or supinating at contact.   It will be built into his full stroke motion.

Not sure if it's even remotely similar, but i do quite a bit of chopblocking (especially against long serves when I'm taken by surprise), and pronation is crucial in generating heavy spin, same with supination on the FH chopblock. 

Also, pronation/supination is not a wrist movement but a forearm movement. 

You are right scientifically on the definition, but what you're showing is still not forearm pronation, because even if there was no forearm rotation whatsoever, if you lift your hand upwards, naturally the blade angle will become more open, ie the BH face would be facing the ceiling. The fact that it's not, is evidence that you actually supinated... it is confusing but blade angle is not just a function of pronation/supination but a whole lot of other joints too, so really the blade angle is not entirely an indication of supination/pronation, but it does provide some clues as to what is happening. 

Even Ovtcharov who uses supination heavily, starts with the bat more than closed (because of how much he actually bows and squats before he explodes). However if you pause videos at the impact point, it is relatively perpendicular to the ball, and then he closes it aggressively after. So if you just looked at blade angles you would be confused af because it goes from closed to open to closed, but it all makes sense because the body movement is what causes it to go from closed to open, and the supination is what causes it to close again. But really what the ball feels is the the open blade angle sinking it into the sponge and then being flung outwards with a closing blade angle. The more you close the more spin you create and the more dwell time you get. 

This is why I said it's a very subtle difference, I can have a stroke with supination and a stroke without supination and from the naked eye of a bystander he most likely would not be able to really tell, unless he was doing slowmo analysis. However it makes a whole lot of difference to the results (spin quality and stability)

I had to roll the topic back a long way to find one of those words: Dignics or Tenergy.

And they posted about it there in the very beginning of the topic... this forum needs a real moderator.

While I've gotten pretty consistent over time with the chops... I would not look to my own form for technique study  I just accept I'm a lifelong bumble, but so long as the ball lands on the table without injury, I consider it a success! 

For the supination part, I think most that I've seen value consistency over any minor benefit they might get from the fancier techniques. Though as I mentioned if you have any video of players doing it the other way I'd be glad to see it, to spot the varying techniques and styles 

Well, people get charged for a lot of things -- doesn't mean it's always useful 

Is there a player you can point to who uses that technique? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L4DJ5kaabU

https://youtu.be/mQXqa6Kupo0?t=88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxj9EkolJ3E

With ojio, it almost looks like she is actually pronating her wrist at the later stage of her swing (maybe going for more sidespin)! Her pinky finger is put on top of her thumb. 

In your video example you are ending with the forehand side facing the opponent on most shots. I've just not seen that done before, to my recollection. 

I believe you just always do that :) 

It is really hard to switch it off or at least isolate it mostly - would cost you too much.

But instead - understand it and apply it properly - would give you a huge gain.

This is very helpful and while I think you don't need to pronate or supinate to get the swing trajectories you outlined ( which was my main point to blahness), I agree with your overall point and find it great for expanding the thought processes here.  In fact, one of the points I was trying to make is that bowing and unbowing creates a movement similar to pronation as well as certain elbow/core movements/usages.  Same with supination, as when you transfer weight from non-racket foot down onto the racket foot, you swing your body in a trajectory akin to supination.