Supinate vs Pronate

blahness wrote: and pronates heavily on his FH loop.

Edited by Valiantsin - 11/14/2020 at 4:52pm

Valiantsin wrote: NextLevel wrote: He said Fan pronates on backhand. I try to take what people write as seriously and charitably as I can. Exactly :) blahness wrote: Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH.... Lol that's right :)  Compiled a short video - which just shows, that mb NextLevel does supnation, mb you do that, but FZD - no: FZD pronates on BH and returns hand through the right side.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_crYH8Rk4g Actually he pronates shoulder and wrist as well. Even I can do both variants and if needed can make a short video to show both variants. (Angle of camera should be proper - otherwise it's not obvious which motion goes to make a hit). This year had pretty much spare time without TT partners (as many of us this year :) :) :) ) so studied it in 3 weeks - have video of flat hits with not evident pronation/supnation - it's just a supportive exercise to learn this technique.  I had sime time ago also short compilation on real base difference between europe bh and chinese bh where Dmitry Ovtcharov shows euro and MaLong shows chinese approach. Pretty interesting I belive :)  But lost it accidentally - anyway the approach is known and can restore if needed.

obesechopper wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oQHXNIGFmY That one seems forced a bit. I've watched a lot of chopping videos and dont recall seeing that kind of exaggerated movement. Joo se hyuk, han ying etc. I think in jsh tutorial video he directly says he tries not to use his wrist much.  I'm sure there are different techniques etc. But that is one I've not really seen before, maybe other than wide backhand shots to angle the ball back toward the table

Edited by Valiantsin - 11/14/2020 at 2:06pm

stiltt wrote: I can see fzd's bh pronating in the back swing, now I get it!

passifid wrote: Actually pronation works fine as a backhand drive from a very closes vat angle. It adds to the upwards brush instead of the over brush. Liam Pitchford uses it a lot, and he is right on many of those links he pronated a small amount while keeping on the whole a rather closed face. Supine motion is excellent for very spin filled shots and probation adds to the power more. Like how dima told Dan to hit through the ball more pros value spin but also use it as a tool to get lots of direct motion. Back from the table fzd used a lot of pronation to hit a flatter faster shot. In fact I have recently added it to my game and went from a bad backhand where my only deadly shot quality was spin to bieng able to hit decently fast, you can brush up still with pronation so I used it mostly on back from the table or higher balls

 

Actually pronation works fine as a backhand drive from a very closes vat angle. It adds to the upwards brush instead of the over brush. Liam Pitchford uses it a lot, and he is right on many of those links he pronated a small amount while keeping on the whole a rather closed face.

blahness wrote: Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....

Edited by Valiantsin - 11/13/2020 at 7:51pm

blahness wrote: Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....

But anyway this thread has been hijacked too much, the original topic was Dignics vs Tenergy.....

blahness wrote: Lmao I don't understand the confusion here, forearm pronation and supination are scientific terms for a specific movement. You supinate every time you turn a door knob or unscrew a bottle cap.  Valiantsin is correct in saying that it can be applied towards the heaviest topspins as well as flat hitting, even Ito Mima's BH flathit is almost purely supination. And yes Ovtcharov's powerful topspin BH is mostly supination too.

NextLevel wrote: Valiantsin wrote: supination and pronation are used to increase power or reduce movement path. Ovtcharov mostly supinates on BH, while Fan pronates. What was shown on video can be used for both flat hit and for heaviest topspin. Maybe I am just not clear on what blahness and you mean by pronation and supination.  That may be confusing me.

supination and pronation are used to increase power or reduce movement path.

Btw, the way Jang Woo Jin does it, he supinates for pretty much every single BH shot he does even in his demonstrations lol... But he doesn't do it to the degree that Fan Zhendong or Liang Jingkun or Ovtcharov does for eg... But then again he isn't exactly known for his BH prowess. Those who have stronger forearm muscles can pronate/supinate more strongly to increase the bat acceleration (and thus spin/speed) further. 

NextLevel wrote: blahness wrote: NextLevel wrote: blahness wrote: For reference this is what I was referring to.  I think it would look better if you did it the way it was used to hit a ball.  It looks extremely unnatural without the forward motion from the elbow/forearm snap and rarely if ever takes place over as large a range as you show. I had to hold the camera in one hand lol...but yes I intentionally separated it from the other components (forearm snap+body rotation) to make the mechanism clearer. But I disagree about the range shown being too large, if you combine it with the entire swing plane (imagine the pronation being done throughout the stroke), it looks a lot more subtle, I can have a stroke with pronation/supination and one without, and they will look almost the same. If you look at for eg Ovtcharov's BH loop and compare his blade angles between start and end, his range of supination is even larger than what I shown here, especially against underspin.  Okay.  I think the last sentence is true, but that is because the distance over which supination occurs is controlled by more than just the elbow joint so you can't have supination without forcing it.  Hence my point that when it happens throughout the swing plane, it doesn't need to be a pronounced as you make out.  In any case,  the way you do it is not the way most people use it to hit a ball.