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Supinate vs Pronate

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 6:30am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

For reference this is what I was referring to. 







I think it would look better if you did it the way it was used to hit a ball.  It looks extremely unnatural without the forward motion from the elbow/forearm snap and rarely if ever takes place over as large a range as you show.

I had to hold the camera in one hand lol...but yes I intentionally separated it from the other components (forearm snap+body rotation) to make the mechanism clearer. But I disagree about the range shown being too large, if you combine it with the entire swing plane (imagine the pronation being done throughout the stroke), it looks a lot more subtle, I can have a stroke with pronation/supination and one without, and they will look almost the same. If you look at for eg Ovtcharov's BH loop and compare his blade angles between start and end, his range of supination is even larger than what I shown here, especially against underspin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 6:02am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

For reference this is what I was referring to. 







I think it would look better if you did it the way it was used to hit a ball.  It looks extremely unnatural without the forward motion from the elbow/forearm snap and rarely if ever takes place over as large a range as you show.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 12:53am
For reference this is what I was referring to. 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 12:29am
Yassun doesn't really teach the pronation contact (that he unconsciously does use but not to the full extent possible). The video was more about how to hit harder and to have better body mechanics. What I notice is that hitting harder without increasing the spin is useless because you will just increase your unforced errors. The harder you hit, the more spin you need to keep the ball on the table. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 10:15pm
The Yassun video is a bit misleading.  What he really does differently vs Guchy is swing faster and with better timing and he is likely stronger/faster physically as well.

In general, players who spin with more brush rotation are often not able to get to the ball consistently enough to bring their power to bear on it and when when they do, they may lack the energy to generate power consistently.   It isn't so much about a technical approach to contact as it is the ability to swing faster and get spin with speed.  It is also difficult to get to the ball consistently on time and if you get to it late, unless you have good knee-bend and stay low, you will need to arc the ball to stay safe.

If you are contacting the ball more solidly, that is a good thing for consistency.   But if you want to hit the ball consistently better, the path is usually to get a faster swing into the ball more consistently while swinging in a curved path over the top of the ball.  But I would argue that the issue when you brush too much is that you don't swing fast enough consistently and not that you are not making solid contact.  Once most of your loops use fast swings, you have reached a different level of play.


Edited by NextLevel - 11/12/2020 at 10:19pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by BrunodeDanann BrunodeDanann wrote:

Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
 
Yes this is the classic Tenergy problem, you have to be very precise with your angles otherwise you'll make an error easily. With Dignics the rubber absorbs the incoming spin easily and allows you to then really add some serious spin on it. It's not very angle sensitive if you have good technique.  However you need to have solid technique for that, ie a lot of power behind a solid brush. Dima also talks about this a lot in why he switched to Dignics 09c (not having to worry too much about the right angle)

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 
Years ago I defended that technique that goes away from the thin brushing to evolve towards a hitting without getting there: it borrows just enough speed to produce just the amount of spin that we want to land, it favors speed.
I was told that the brain can't act  so fast to rotate the paddle at contact. I answered to that it is true only if we start rotating the forearm too late but if we do so before right contact, it happens just fine. 
I'll try bringing that conversation back, it was interesting.
Needless to say I am still convinced that you are right and it's a valid way to go.
Tbh this technique produces much more spin than the thin brush method.
Yes the brain can't really act that fast, it's really a timing thing, so the pronation/supination actually has to occur before contact. The main thing is to engage the pronation/supination mechanism which allows for much more power and spin generation. To do this you also need strong forearm muscles since the muscles controlling pronation/supination are in the forearm. I bought a Powerball to train these muscles up and it seems to be making a huge difference haha... 
this kind of contact is also mentioned in this video. https://youtu.be/oX31FTT_dPc definitely worth watching
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by BrunodeDanann BrunodeDanann wrote:

Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
 
Yes this is the classic Tenergy problem, you have to be very precise with your angles otherwise you'll make an error easily. With Dignics the rubber absorbs the incoming spin easily and allows you to then really add some serious spin on it. It's not very angle sensitive if you have good technique.  However you need to have solid technique for that, ie a lot of power behind a solid brush. Dima also talks about this a lot in why he switched to Dignics 09c (not having to worry too much about the right angle)

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 
Years ago I defended that technique that goes away from the thin brushing to evolve towards a hitting without getting there: it borrows just enough speed to produce just the amount of spin that we want to land, it favors speed.
I was told that the brain can't act  so fast to rotate the paddle at contact. I answered to that it is true only if we start rotating the forearm too late but if we do so before right contact, it happens just fine. 
I'll try bringing that conversation back, it was interesting.
Needless to say I am still convinced that you are right and it's a valid way to go.
Tbh this technique produces much more spin than the thin brush method.
Yes the brain can't really act that fast, it's really a timing thing, so the pronation/supination actually has to occur before contact. The main thing is to engage the pronation/supination mechanism which allows for much more power and spin generation. To do this you also need strong forearm muscles since the muscles controlling pronation/supination are in the forearm. I bought a Powerball to train these muscles up and it seems to be making a huge difference haha... 
Agreed, I have the same contact especially for forehand counters
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by BrunodeDanann BrunodeDanann wrote:

Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
 
Yes this is the classic Tenergy problem, you have to be very precise with your angles otherwise you'll make an error easily. With Dignics the rubber absorbs the incoming spin easily and allows you to then really add some serious spin on it. It's not very angle sensitive if you have good technique.  However you need to have solid technique for that, ie a lot of power behind a solid brush. Dima also talks about this a lot in why he switched to Dignics 09c (not having to worry too much about the right angle)

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 
Years ago I defended that technique that goes away from the thin brushing to evolve towards a hitting without getting there: it borrows just enough speed to produce just the amount of spin that we want to land, it favors speed.
I was told that the brain can't act  so fast to rotate the paddle at contact. I answered to that it is true only if we start rotating the forearm too late but if we do so before right contact, it happens just fine. 
I'll try bringing that conversation back, it was interesting.
Needless to say I am still convinced that you are right and it's a valid way to go.
Tbh this technique produces much more spin than the thin brush method.
Yes the brain can't really act that fast, it's really a timing thing, so the pronation/supination actually has to occur before contact. The main thing is to engage the pronation/supination mechanism which allows for much more power and spin generation. To do this you also need strong forearm muscles since the muscles controlling pronation/supination are in the forearm. I bought a Powerball to train these muscles up and it seems to be making a huge difference haha... 


Edited by blahness - 11/12/2020 at 4:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by BrunodeDanann BrunodeDanann wrote:

Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
 
Yes this is the classic Tenergy problem, you have to be very precise with your angles otherwise you'll make an error easily. With Dignics the rubber absorbs the incoming spin easily and allows you to then really add some serious spin on it. It's not very angle sensitive if you have good technique.  However you need to have solid technique for that, ie a lot of power behind a solid brush. Dima also talks about this a lot in why he switched to Dignics 09c (not having to worry too much about the right angle)

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 
Years ago I defended that technique that goes away from the thin brushing to evolve towards a hitting without getting there: it borrows just enough speed to produce just the amount of spin that we want to land, it favors speed.
I was told that the brain can't act  so fast to rotate the paddle at contact. I answered to that it is true only if we start rotating the forearm too late but if we do so before right contact, it happens just fine. 
I'll try bringing that conversation back, it was interesting.
Needless to say I am still convinced that you are right and it's a valid way to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 8:58am
Originally posted by BrunodeDanann BrunodeDanann wrote:

Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
 
Yes this is the classic Tenergy problem, you have to be very precise with your angles otherwise you'll make an error easily. With Dignics the rubber absorbs the incoming spin easily and allows you to then really add some serious spin on it. It's not very angle sensitive if you have good technique.  However you need to have solid technique for that, ie a lot of power behind a solid brush. Dima also talks about this a lot in why he switched to Dignics 09c (not having to worry too much about the right angle)

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrunodeDanann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 7:53am
Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 4:13am
Hi,

This is a good topic of discussion, however its meaningfulness would be increased with the direct inclusion of Tenergy 05 Hard in the equation of the question, as its attributes are of a distinction from Tenergy as to be worthy of standalone analysis.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knuckle Ball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 3:53am
Dignics 05 solves the sensitivity to incoming spin I've had with T05. D05 is also much better in blocking. I still love the spin generation and looping of T05. So for me DO5 on backhand and T05 on forehand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2020 at 11:55pm
i like d05 over t05. D05 is easier to handle and to spin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nv42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2020 at 10:29pm
Imo, the biggest advantage dignics provides is in the active rally game, mainly the counter loop, which is what many pros give most preferance to. For a regular club player that wants something really close to a d05 in hardness and power, a mxp50 feels the the most similar. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2020 at 8:56pm
IMHO:
T05fx is better for banana, for flip.
D05 much better in short game and in pushes and chopblocks.
T05fx is better for thin balls (in receives and against semi-short pushes)
T05fx is better for serves.

So basically close to table game is better with soft T05fx (except short game pushes and chopblocks), and the farther from the table - the better D05 be it bh or fh.
Did not try D09c
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2020 at 7:49pm
Dignics completely destroys Tenergy in short game control and also the amount of gears available. 

Tenergy is good only if you need the rubber to help you out in power...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2020 at 7:45pm
Now that these rubbers have been out for a while which do you prefer  and why. I switched to Dignics but might be going back to Tenergy.   

Edited by jpenmaster - 11/22/2020 at 9:52am
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