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Clearing up equipment misconceptions |
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Chairman Meow
Super Member Joined: 10/04/2016 Location: Hell, Michigan Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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I'm about USATT 2000 and I've been using Chinese rubbers (unboosted) almost the whole time I have been playing. I don't see any real disadvantages using them over European style rubbers, which I also tried out for a period of time. There are upsides and downsides to using both.
In the end, I think a lot of the discussion about the "best equipment" and such is not as impactful as one might think. The technique and skill comes from practice. A USATT 2000 rated player who uses inverted rubber will probably play within 100 points of their level regardless of equipment, provided it isn't something drastically different like pips or antispin. At least, that is my experience from playing against partners experimenting with different equipment, and trying things out myself. Improving one's level can also be done with any equipment. There's no right or wrong way to play, since everyone has a different style. It is very feasible to be 2400 or even better with any blade/rubbers. Everyone has something different that works well for them. If one is trying to be a top player, there are definitely certain styles and setups that will yield faster improvement and a higher ceiling. But in that case, the player would be listening to their (hopefully experienced) coach and higher rated players they know in person, rather than people on the internet.
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idk
Silver Member Joined: 07/11/2011 Location: Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 790 |
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well first you said there is not a single one, now you are talking about a trend. the trend is that many top players changed to and have stuck with faster blades after the plastic ball change. ZLC and super ZLC is very popular now with top pros and second tier pros. ALC is still very popular too. this doesn't mean a beginner or intermediate player needs a super zlc zhang jike, but you aren't really defending your point very well.
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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H3 is too expensive for starters and too stiff. I know the places where they give them boosted Mercury 2 instead.
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idk
Silver Member Joined: 07/11/2011 Location: Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 790 |
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which is still chinese rubber it's like saying "do you know anywhere they give beginning students tenergy 05 or MXS hard? no? then no beginners should use euro/japanese rubbers"
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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Edited by Valiantsin - 12/26/2020 at 9:44pm |
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TT newbie
Gold Member Joined: 11/25/2011 Location: Far Far Away Status: Offline Points: 1391 |
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This is the worst topic I´ve read in this forum in many years.
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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I think this is something that everyone should keep in mind when contemplating about wether they should use hurricane rubbers or euro rubbers. Even if you manage to play awesome in regular training, it doesn’t mean anything if you play much worse in matches when you don’t know where the ball is going.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hurricanes have to be boosted basically, otherwise it plays like a brick. If you don't boost you should get a softer sponge like 38, 39 deg....
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Chairman Meow
Super Member Joined: 10/04/2016 Location: Hell, Michigan Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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I know I'm an outlier, but I quite like unboosted H3 (41 deg on forehand, 37 backhand). I used some Xiom rubber a while ago and later Rasanter for 6 months, but it didn't work out for me. I did sacrifice some speed by going back to H3, but I can swing hard enough to make it work. I do agree with Tt Gold though; Euro rubbers are more forgiving when out of position. But as someone who has used H3 almost the whole time I've been playing, there are a lot of things you can do once you have gotten used to them.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hmm yes I agree, there's serves and receives and some crazy 3rd balls that wouldn't land with Euro rubbers simply because the Hurricanes have very high spin to speed ratios. Have you tried Dignics 09c? For me it offers me the best of both worlds, it's as spinny and controllable in the close table game, but away from the table when I engage the spring sponge it is fast like a tensor rubber.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Chairman Meow
Super Member Joined: 10/04/2016 Location: Hell, Michigan Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Unfortunately, no. I'm far too cheap to ever buy it, unless it'll last me over a year of consistent play. I hope to try it one day though if someone at my club ends up getting it. I do use Hurricane on a relatively fast blade, so I've never had issues with power away from the table.
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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First off, thank you Hans, for an excellent summary of ideas. I know that I fell victim to "Chinese Forehand Rubber" early on, and have personally relied on tacky topsheet/hard sponge, murderous short game and attacking inside the table to cover up a lot of my games shortcomings (footwork, prediction, consistency).
This answer looks incomplete. If the player uses Short or Medium pips, at an intermediate level, it would seem that the Schlager Carbon is an excellent blade. The blade's construction reduces incoming service strength on receive, and allows the user to much more easily hit through the limited spin on the plastic balls. This is when compared to woodier and slower inner carbon blades like the classic Stiga Super Carbon. TL;DR Schlager Carbon ignores opponent spin strength and variation.
Edited by icontek - 12/27/2020 at 1:03pm |
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Hans Regenkurt
Silver Member Joined: 08/12/2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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@idk: I see no point in discussing the Primorac Carbon further unless 30-40 players in the world's top 100 start using it. As for Chinese vs euro: my view is that it is better to traverse a learning curve that consists of transitions from ESN 38/40 degree to 45 and then 50 or some Chinese rubber for the FH in the very end. This will highlight problems with technique and will force learners to hone their technique the end result of which will be a player who can handle a Chinese rubber if they still find it fit. Taking the Chinese route contains a hidden trap and this is especially true of you have no coach. I see many people fall into this. At the lower levels they give a false illusion of easier service return and more sense of achievement on loops when playing people of a similarly low level. However, people who take this route will have flaws in their game that will become evident as they go higher. And I am not talking about Chinese ex-pros, only about people who want to develop a technically sound looping game. @Chairman Meow: As I see, USATT 2000 is the rating where the problem of Chinese vs euro is not so acute YET. You can play an effective game in terms of success ratio without being forced to have really well elaborated attacking strokes and the footwork and other elements that go along with that. I think problems start coming if you decide to take things further. May I ask what style you play?
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Hans Regenkurt
Silver Member Joined: 08/12/2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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A lot of interesting remarks and observations As for Chinese rubbers, I am against them because they give a false sense of progress at lower levels, especially when someone does not have access to / cannot afford formal coaching. Therefore I am a proponent of sh*ting to Chinese from strong intermediate levels up if someone feels the need but never before. Could you share your opinion on the viability of thin defensive rubbers in the plastic ball era? As for beginner blades, I know there are more but I wanted to narrow down the range to a bare minimum that will not make you go skint while giving good value at the same time. Regarding your comment on Q4: A4.2 If you are not good – does not matter if it gives you fun, if you are
good – it does not matter as you already
know how to use such a blade. I started out by emphasising that if someone enjoys trying out new equipment, my comments are not so relevant. I agree with you completely about the fun part. It is the illusion that playing with a very fast blade will result in a huge leap in 2 weeks that I want to eliminate.
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Simon_plays
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2015 Location: Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1085 |
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Which booster is recommended as an intro to boosting ESN rubbers like FastArc G1? All I want is to prolong that new rubber feeling after a month or so.
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Chairman Meow
Super Member Joined: 10/04/2016 Location: Hell, Michigan Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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I play an attacking style, but a bit of all-round as well, depending on the situation. I did get coached for a few years, so I would say my strokes and footwork are decent. Not perfect, but I move fast enough and keep my position. I just don't see how Chinese rubbers "cover up" for weaknesses in these areas. They aren't magic. If you have bad footwork and strokes, you will suffer in the same areas with both European and Chinese rubbers. If anything, I've found European rubbers to be more forgiving of bad positioning and strokes. Some players I know have switched from Chinese to European because they found it easier to play with without needing substantial improvements in form. I haven't seen the reverse happen. As I've said before, I have played with Chinese rubber for a long time. Many of the players I know are from China and started out with Chinese rubber. Many of them have great footwork and strokes. So if someone is using Chinese rubber, they have a lot of solid players to learn from. I don't see the trend of players with Chinese rubber having significant weaknesses in their game compared to those using European rubber, at least where I live. They certainly require slightly different strokes, but I don't see them hindering players' fundamentals unless they are trying to use a Chinese rubber with a European style stroke, which is rare.
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Online Points: 1027 |
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thank you for the nice reading all along chairman meow, you are such the kind club player who knows where he is coming from, is and where he's going, taking the game seriously while never taking himself so. I like to surround myself with people like you at the club, they provide a safe spirited infrastructure on which we may play the game best.
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idk
Silver Member Joined: 07/11/2011 Location: Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 790 |
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you said there was "not one single top player" that was using primorac carbon and i pointed out Groth is using it, that's all. never said anything about 30-40 players using it. there are also not anything close to 30-40 top 100 players using all wood but you recommend that. but there are 30-40 (actually, almost all) top players who upgraded their blades to faster and stiffer blades to compensate for the new ball. that contradicts your statement that top players need nothing faster than a viscaria/boll ALC or that there is some "bygone epoch" of players requiring stiff blades.
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Hans Regenkurt
Silver Member Joined: 08/12/2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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A teammate of mine tried Falco Long on his Fastarc P1. It made the rubber softer. What me and my fellow players have tried and works is: 1. Falco Long - the effect lasts about 2-3 months, you only need to put one layer 2. The other Falco which lasts about one month, it gives you more feel than Falco Long 3. Revo Booster, some say it lasts for months, others mention bout 2 months. It gives good feel but I have heard from several people that the booster somehow evaporates from the bottle and they end up with a lot less in a very short time. 4. TRF booster, it lasts 3-4 weeks, perhaps it is more aggressive than the above My vote goes to Falco Long. The Fastarc sponge may not be the best subject for boosting. We usually boost MXP, MXS, Bluestorm Z1-Z2 and it works well.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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+1 Chinese rubbers forces you to use your body properly, otherwise there's just no chance in hell you're gonna produce a strong powerloop. Whereas a lot of players using Euro rubbers just rely on the rubber's speed and never learnt to throw their body weight into the ball.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Rollko
Super Member Joined: 03/11/2020 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 367 |
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Is there a better alternative to boosting/using fresh rubbers, if a faster blade, as you guys say, is not a good idea? Because ALC with an unboosted worn out T05 is just slow.
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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I have enjoyed this thread.
One more thing I want to mention. I do not boost. I do LIKE the feeling of freshly glued/attached rubber using rubber cement, but I cannot bring my self to boost (ie my blades and rubbers are attached months before I go to a tournament). I cannot believe that my opponents (1500-2000 USATT) at tournaments are boosting and even if they are I just can't do it. I would rather lose than do something that is clearly against the rules.
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6899 |
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I'm not sure it helps anyway in that range
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tommyzai
Premier Member Senior Animator Joined: 02/17/2007 Location: Tucson AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 9289 |
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Go Low-VOC for health . . . Zero would be better, but even DHS says, "No smell rubbers. Bad for health."
Edited by tommyzai - 01/01/2021 at 12:00pm |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I wrote a long post about this topic at TTD a couple of days ago. It has given rise to a lot of discussion.
The gist is that Chairman Meow has figured out something pretty important. Using the same setup for a long time alliws your motor systems to learned subconsciously how best to use it. And a lot of marketing and EJ threads make claims unsupported by any evidence.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Here is the last post I made on that TTD thread. Manufacturers make a huge variety of subtly different kinds of rubber and blades all designed for pretty much the same kind of player. Then they, along with "experts" on forums, convince people that there is some sort of super secret rocket science (accumulated by "experience") by which every aspect of a player's technique (or technical limitations) can be perfectly matched to this finely tuned equipment. You just need to try all their stuff until you find the right COMBINATION and ONLY THEN can you reach your "full potential"; but then they will introduce a new version with 1 degree harder sponge..... Reality is that after a period for your brain to get used to the new thing, rubber or blade, you play like you play. Yiur motor systems will adjust to this new setup. Then you will be you. Again. Switching from ALC to ZLC will have zero impact on your level. But, let's assume it does, a little? It is after all possible and sometimes does happen. Rarely. How would you know? Objective (quantitative) measures of your overall level take a long time to accumulate. Be skeptical!! (Also, as Brs noted, the equipment choicess that actually do have a lasting impact entail tradeoffs!!). Edited by Baal - 01/02/2021 at 10:42am |
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Lightspin
Super Member Joined: 07/11/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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If you want to improve a playing level, changing equipment will rarely help. You just need to practice more.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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+1, most of my leaps in level came from new understanding of technique and tactics and specific training (hint: endless FH to FH topspins does nothing to your game). I have actually tested changing setups (ie just used my partner's rackets ) and it didn't do squat to my playing level lol...as long as it's a reasonably modern setup it's gonna work fine. It's pretty much just some blade angle adjustments. You'll never cover for technique deficiencies using equipment. But I would say that it's important to get some reasonable equipment which is not overly fast and uncontrollable nor overly slow and dead. For eg unboosted H3 on 5 ply wood is probably way too slow for the modern game, and Primorac Carbon with T64 is probably on the other end
Edited by blahness - 01/06/2021 at 9:17am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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tommyzai
Premier Member Senior Animator Joined: 02/17/2007 Location: Tucson AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 9289 |
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You still need to use equipment that suits your playing style.
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