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supination in BH

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Makelele Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2019 at 10:22pm
Blahness, do you know of any video showing it explicitly for forehand, like the TTR Hunter one does for backhand?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2019 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

https://youtu.be/Gri2K5EoQQc

Error 404 not found



Edited by Ieyasu - 02/19/2019 at 10:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/20/2019 at 12:42am
Originally posted by Makelele Makelele wrote:

Blahness, do you know of any video showing it explicitly for forehand, like the TTR Hunter one does


Hi Makelele, I've recorded some segments away from the table just in my room which should show it quite clear! Just need to figure out the Youtube thing...haven't done it in ages!

But if you follow the diagrams I've posted, for FH it should be pronation + radial/ulnar plane wrist movement, and you'll get it. There's always a certain amount of flexion/extension but they shouldn't be the main component of your stroke.

Edited by blahness - 02/20/2019 at 12:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/20/2019 at 8:39am
Fixed.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/20/2019 at 8:59pm
I know NL has always advocated circular strokes, but up until now I've always been more of a "straight line" strokes type of guy. I think I'm starting to favor circular strokes too, at least for the backhand. Yesterday when coaching one of my students, I started to use a circular analogy. Maybe your light preaching is starting to wear off on me haha. Watching that LHTT video was also very insightful too. Thanks.

This supination thread has really gotten me thinking in a completely different way, so thank you blahness for bringing it up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2019 at 4:15am
Here is a playlist of me shadowing the various movements discussed in this thread as promised! Hope it helps!

BH:

FH:


Edited by blahness - 02/21/2019 at 4:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2019 at 11:08am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I know NL has always advocated circular strokes, but up until now I've always been more of a "straight line" strokes type of guy. I think I'm starting to favor circular strokes too, at least for the backhand. Yesterday when coaching one of my students, I started to use a circular analogy. Maybe your light preaching is starting to wear off on me haha. Watching that LHTT video was also very insightful too. Thanks.

This supination thread has really gotten me thinking in a completely different way, so thank you blahness for bringing it up.

The forehand is a large circle for most people even if they don't think that way .  In general, circular for spin, line for speed.  And you can find a balance in between. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2019 at 12:51pm
To be pnachtwey-precise, the proper term should be curvilinear. Strictly speaking, most if not all strokes in TT involve a combination of translation and rotation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2019 at 1:56pm
Ideally linear in the direction of translation and curvilinear around the axis of spin. This gives the best chance of making good contact (unless you have perfect timing in which case almost anything should work).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2019 at 2:59pm
This is an excellent thread. Well done to all posters
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2019 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

To be pnachtwey-precise, the proper term should be curvilinear. Strictly speaking, most if not all strokes in TT involve a combination of translation and rotation.

Yes.... I've also added a slight pronation action to my BH push and it resulted in a significant increase in spin too! If you time it well it can be a very small movement, and you can adjust the pronation timing to create a fake push (push with no spin!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2019 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Ideally linear in the direction of translation and curvilinear around the axis of spin. This gives the best chance of making good contact (unless you have perfect timing in which case almost anything should work).

For me somehow the understanding of pronation and supination has helped me time it much better. In general you always want solid contact, so in my mind it's always very important to achieve solid contact before pronating/supination through the ball. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2019 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Here is a playlist of me shadowing the various movements discussed in this thread as promised! Hope it helps!

Thank you! You separated them very nicely. Very easy to see. I'm still not a huge fan of the forehand one, but the backhand one just looks and feels right. Maybe in time haha. I watched a Chinese Stiga video last night and the lady in the video did have like a supination like movement as she tightened her grip during contact. It doesn't look as obvious as the backhand when she's hitting the ball, but when she was demonstrating slowly, she mentioned it.

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The forehand is a large circle for most people even if they don't think that way .  In general, circular for spin, line for speed.  And you can find a balance in between. 

Thank you. I'm going to have to meditate on it a little more. I feel like I'm getting there with the forehand too, but not quite seeing it clearly yet!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2019 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Here is a playlist of me shadowing the various movements discussed in this thread as promised! Hope it helps!

Thank you! You separated them very nicely. Very easy to see. I'm still not a huge fan of the forehand one, but the backhand one just looks and feels right. Maybe in time haha. I watched a Chinese Stiga video last night and the lady in the video did have like a supination like movement as she tightened her grip during contact. It doesn't look as obvious as the backhand when she's hitting the ball, but when she was demonstrating slowly, she mentioned it.

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The forehand is a large circle for most people even if they don't think that way .  In general, circular for spin, line for speed.  And you can find a balance in between. 

Thank you. I'm going to have to meditate on it a little more. I feel like I'm getting there with the forehand too, but not quite seeing it clearly yet!

Glad it made it clear for you! It was kinda awkward recording the FH ones because to keep the camera steady you can't have body rotation lol...

For FH the pronation is definitely even less visible but if you examine the actions of top players like Fan Zhendong it's definitely there. 

It's actually in Chinese table tennis literature, the term is 手臂内旋(pronation) and 手臂外旋(supination), just that I never understood that term and always skipped past it :(


Edited by blahness - 02/21/2019 at 9:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/22/2019 at 8:26am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/22/2019 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Makelele Makelele wrote:

As you said in the topic about WRM translations, in this video the Korean guy who appears after the 4 minute with Simon Sandals (TTR-Hunter) seems to talk about the supination you are discussing here. 
It would be great if someone could translate that from German, but anyway images are clearly enough to show the concept.

My question is, doesn't this technique mean a significative loss in spin (in favour of more flatter power)?
I am enjoying this whole thread a lot, thanks blahness.
ttrh did well describing fzd's bh supination at 20 minutes 20 sec, this guys is very serious, he sounds like ttgold, as committed but less severe though LOL

20min05sec:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2019 at 1:48pm
in the bh, supination allows a more fh oriented grip that makes the bh stroke much more aggressive, that's new to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/28/2019 at 1:31am
watching the marvellous 12 women, I find that ZYL has a lot of supination in her bh and that both LSW and her use it on their far reaching fast bh blocks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/28/2019 at 2:31am
Say a player attempts a BH push, the type where he/she 'scoops' the ball. It appears to be the opposite of supination but not pronation. What is that wrist movement called?
>65yo, presently overweight rather than obese.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/28/2019 at 2:43am
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Say a player attempts a BH push, the type where he/she 'scoops' the ball. It appears to be the opposite of supination but not pronation. What is that wrist movement called?

It is pronation except the ball is on the other side of the bat! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/28/2019 at 3:12am
OK, cheers
>65yo, presently overweight rather than obese.

Currently testing; Darker Speed90 with T05H/Dignics05. Update; T05 on BH is impressive when all is right,but D05 wins more points

Delusion is an asset
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2019 at 12:49am
I've been watching random TT videos again, and this is one I've seen before, but it demonstrates supination.


Thought I'd just leave it here for anyone who might want to see :)
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