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Outer ply characteristics

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Tt Gold View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09/25/2018 at 4:13am
So a German YouTuber, who I've been following since 2015, made a few interesting videos on the outer ply characteristics of koto, limbs and hinoki. He started a series called road to 2000ttr and is now working for xiom. I thought the things he said in his videos were very interesting and I'd like to hear your thoughts about them.

Video on Limba
Summary:
- Limba is a very good option for beginners due to longer dwell time
- players with longer strokes would benefit from using Limba
- players that hit with the sponge rather than the top sheet( a little behind the ball)
Koto
Summary:
-Timo boll is the perfect example of how to use a koto blade
- koto would benefit athletically weaker and shorter players
- the ball leaves the racket very quickly
- players with shorter arm movement like Timo are made for koto
- because of a shorter swing a perfect timing is required ( with a longer swing you can hit the ball a bit late or early, but with a short swing if you hit the ball too early or late you lose a ton of quality)
- you should play with the top sheet rather than the sponge( more on the top of the ball)

Hinoki
Summary:
- hinoki is a lot different than the other two
- it is soft and has a lot of catapult effect ( kind of as if it is alive)
- you should try to spin the ball with the hinoki ply
- a topspin drive shot is perfect for hinoki
- if you are a player that brushes the ball a lot then you shouldn't go for hinoki ( go for koto instead)
- hinoki blades are usually very fast
- longer strokes with a more constant arm speed are required( like schlager, kreanger, primorac)
- the things he said about hinoki are assuming you are using a carbon fiber underneath the hinoki ply
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pr1nc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 5:28am
Good review but it doesnt mean to be true for every player. If you watch Koki Niwa you can see that he is close to the table short movement player and he uses limba outer for a long long time. I also like and prefer more limba then koto because limba has much more wood feel (koto is in many times dead and like a glass or pure carbon) and I play with short moves. Also movements for BH spin in today modern table tennis are short, and more players with that stroke use and prefer limba as outer then koto.
All in all it depends what player prefers and likes more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 6:05am
Short backhand strokes are used by boll and pretty bunch all Chinese which use koto. I guess the ones using short backhand strokes that use Limba are apolonia and a few other players. The biggest difference between koto and Limba are, as you also said, the woodier feel of Limba and more dwell. Of course you can play a Limba wood with short movements, but the question is if koto wouldn't be more optimal. Personally I don't think the stroke length is the deciding factor for choosing koto or Limba. The way you hit the ball ( thinner or with more sponge), the feeling you prefer (wooden feel with Limba or harder crisper feel with koto) and the demands you have ( do you have problems with creating spin ( use Limba) or maybe you lack power ( koto)). I always used viscaria, just because I know the blade is solid. If I compare it with my boll zlf, the boll zlf helps to create spin but restricts power. The viscaria on the other hand doesn't help with anything, but does anything if you have the skill to do it. But recently my teammate took my racket and said that it was extremely fast. He uses Timo boll alc, so basically the same blade and even heavier than mine. Mine weighs 83 gr his weighs 88-90 gr. But I use tenergy 64 and he never used Spring spong stuff. When I went to practice a day later I realized that if I put in all my body the shot pretty much has the same speed as when I put in a lot less effort. Since I don't need a lot of speed from the blade I might as well use something with more dwell and control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pr1nc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 6:39am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Short backhand strokes are used by boll and pretty bunch all Chinese which use koto. I guess the ones using short backhand strokes that use Limba are apolonia and a few other players.


Mizutani, Apolonia, many Chinese players that use DHS blades, almost whole Japanese national team (I think only Kenta is using koto), almost every Stiga signed player...
I agree that Viscaria, Boll ALC and Boll Spirit take a big piece of TT blades, but rest of that blades are bigger then that piece.

Edited by Pr1nc - 09/25/2018 at 6:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pr1nc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 6:43am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Since I don't need a lot of speed from the blade I might as well use something with more dwell and control.


Maybe Inerforce ZLC (has limba as outer ply)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 7:06am
I hate zlc blades I guess. Played with an apolonia if found laying around somewhere and didn't like it at all. I'm thinking about getting an innerforce alc, since it has a more wooden feel and Limba as an outer ply. Yes alc blades are only a piece of the cake, but a big piece. Almost all Chinese players use viscaria or some type of clone. But as I said, I don't thing the length of the stroke it THE deciding factor.

Edited by Tt Gold - 09/25/2018 at 7:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pr1nc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 7:10am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

But as I said, I don't thing the length of the stroke it THE deciding factor.


I agree with this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 9:54am
What blades do the other people in your club/league/state play with. Do TB branded blades have a 90% market share in Germany LOL? Just wondering if you can playtest many diff blades, or lots of players but all using small set of equipment.

You didn't really say much about what feel you prefer, carbon or wood. Maybe consider acoustic carbon if you like that feel, or acoustic carbon inner if you want more wood feel. Either would be a lot slower than viscaria, ACI much more. But you have good power, and those would supposedly offer more dwell and control, if vibration frequency and marketing PR are accurate. Or are you looking bty only?

Obviously my ulterior motive is to eventually get you playing Mima Ito's ACI Fastarc G1 Moristo SP superthick setup. You would be deadly with that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chroot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 10:07am
Very nice review. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 11:41am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

What blades do the other people in your club/league/state play with. Do TB branded blades have a 90% market share in Germany LOL? Just wondering if you can playtest many diff blades, or lots of players but all using small set of equipment.

You didn't really say much about what feel you prefer, carbon or wood. Maybe consider acoustic carbon if you like that feel, or acoustic carbon inner if you want more wood feel. Either would be a lot slower than viscaria, ACI much more. But you have good power, and those would supposedly offer more dwell and control, if vibration frequency and marketing PR are accurate. Or are you looking bty only?

Obviously my ulterior motive is to eventually get you playing Mima Ito's ACI Fastarc G1 Moristo SP superthick setup. You would be deadly with that.

I played with an infinity Vps v 4 1/2 years ago but stopped playing with it when the top ply got wrecked. Tried it out a few weeks ago again, since my skill level is completely different than it was back. The shots were pretty much the same as with the viscaria, just a little slower. I didn't really notice it though as I just put more effort into the strokes. The only thing I didn't like was that my forehand was to hard for the blade. The blade was shaking a lot. I'm actually going to use it today again, since I wanna check if the Limba is really so much different. In my team the blades used are Timo boll alc, viscaria, hinoki vii or joyner, carbonado and some basic gewo blade. I think 3 people use Timo boll alc in the whole club. That makes about 5% of players. But 66,6% shouldn't of the club shouldn't play those types of blades anyways, so it makes sense that there are only so few. I don't really mind using any blade I guess. The only thing I dislike are those high arc blades. I rather have a medium throw as it fits my technique better. But I think I should definitely switch to something woodier. I don't need to sacrifice control for power, since I can easily produce much more than needed. I do have problems in the receive aspect though, so more control would give me confidence. I remember when I was still using the infinity I had very good short pushes, managing to short push long pushes. And I also used the backhand flip quite often. Can you believe it? 4 1/2 years ago I managed to play that shot and fast forward in time I'm not using it anymore:/. I have a guy in my team that switched to short pips before this season, but he's switching back already. Short pips could actually be a thing for me, but once I get my 3 backhand topspin shots down there is no need for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dream1700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 11:48am
Tt Gold, how long have you played before you started using the infinity comfortably? how heavy is it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 12:10pm
True there is no need for SP for you, but it's fun. And if you like to punch short balls and punch block, the shot will be more trouble for your opponents. But that's only a side note. It does sound like a different blade could open up your game a lot, from what you said about the infinity.

It's mostly true that changing equipment doesn't change your level very much, but sometimes it does. And more accurately, it doesn't change your level right away, but if you have more or different options in your game, your level might be higher on a longer view. Immediately it may drop as you change your style.

IF you make a change, what evaluation criteria will you use? How long will you give it? Just curious if you trust gut feel or number crunching, or some mix.

I changed blade several times with going to SP. I used feeling and results vs one weekly training partner like a control. For the pips I knew I had the right one doing multiball comparison. Changing to fastarc fh from t05 it just felt good and I asked my clubmates to compare my service spin. Wondering how you and others decide on equipment changes, and when to stop looking/ejing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 4:46pm
HNTTR's views are 90% correct.
The only thing I beg to differ is that koto does not require short strokes. But it makes them better, faster, spinnier, when brushing. Same type of fine contact will not reach the net with limba, or will have poor quality. But indeed timing is more important with koto.

So it is a matter of what kind of contact you prefer.
I personally dislike limba and love koto.

Also, imo, limba is much better with a softer topsheet and powerful sponge rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2018 at 5:48pm
@ hozuki yes that's why he says Limba is for players that play with the sponge instead of the top sheet.
@Dream1700 I had been playing for 7 years when I started using it. But I never really practiced until then. I was rated 1200 ( probably 1400-1550 usttr)
@BRS I think it depends when you start changing your equipment. If you stick to a setup over a long period of time whilst still developing, then switching has a bigger impact. In my case I played my whole journey with viscaria, so changing equipment has potential to make a bigger impact than let's say someone who frequently gets faster stuff while still developing. I used the blade today and didn't play worse at all.i had no problems using it straight away. I tried to open up with heavy spin, which worked great and then just continued smacking at the ball. I think my receive game was better, but that could also be a mental thing, since I know I have more control with the infinity. Opening up with the backhand worked out as well, but I don't have a problem opening up with the viscaria, so big deal. I was surprised, cause I remember whenever I was switching between viscaria and the infinity years ago, I always felt the "way longer" dwell time when playing forehand. Today I didn't really notice that at all. What I noticed though was that my backhand against topspin was quite different. Against faster balls into my backhand, especially serves, I was able to spin them back without a problem. I really noticed the improved dwell time on those shots. It felt like when I was hitting the ball my racket would lead the ball, kind of dragging it through the motion. Power wise it didn't really make a difference. I might have had to play one more topspin here and there, but I made up for that with my fitness and some smarter angles. The only time I noticed that I really had to work more was in longer rallys, where my opponent was topspin lobbing the ball back I had to play a lot of shots to finish the point. I also have to do that with the viscaria, but I guess I'm using the natural speed of the viscaria more in those rallys. With the infinity I had to go full power 5-7 times in those scenarios. Overall I really liked the blade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2018 at 9:54am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

What blades do the other people in your club/league/state play with. Do TB branded blades have a 90% market share in Germany LOL? Just wondering if you can playtest many diff blades, or lots of players but all using small set of equipment.

You didn't really say much about what feel you prefer, carbon or wood. Maybe consider acoustic carbon if you like that feel, or acoustic carbon inner if you want more wood feel. Either would be a lot slower than viscaria, ACI much more. But you have good power, and those would supposedly offer more dwell and control, if vibration frequency and marketing PR are accurate. Or are you looking bty only?

Obviously my ulterior motive is to eventually get you playing Mima Ito's ACI Fastarc G1 Moristo SP superthick setup. You would be deadly with that.



I have the feeling that the outer layer of ito mima 's blade make moristo blocks nastier
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2018 at 11:45am
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

What blades do the other people in your club/league/state play with. Do TB branded blades have a 90% market share in Germany LOL? Just wondering if you can playtest many diff blades, or lots of players but all using small set of equipment.

You didn't really say much about what feel you prefer, carbon or wood. Maybe consider acoustic carbon if you like that feel, or acoustic carbon inner if you want more wood feel. Either would be a lot slower than viscaria, ACI much more. But you have good power, and those would supposedly offer more dwell and control, if vibration frequency and marketing PR are accurate. Or are you looking bty only?

Obviously my ulterior motive is to eventually get you playing Mima Ito's ACI Fastarc G1 Moristo SP superthick setup. You would be deadly with that.



I have the feeling that the outer layer of ito mima 's blade make moristo blocks nastier


Really? Why do you think that would be the case?   I'm asking seriously because I use her rubbers on a diff blade. Sorry to hijack, but nastier blocks would help me a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2018 at 3:41pm
I like the feel of Koto blades with my short pips backhand, and my forehand inverted strokes don't seem to suffer either with this setup.  I'm not sure if I can tell you why, but it seems to be working for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2018 at 7:22am
Hi,

[I have the feeling that the outer layer of ito mima 's blade make moristo blocks nastier]

This may be true, however I have heard that she has a special sponge that makes the big difference.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanMcg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2018 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

[<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">I have the feeling that the outer layer of ito mima 's blade make moristo blocks nastier]</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">This may be true, however I have heard that she has a special sponge that makes the big difference.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Thanks.</span>


Special sponge it may be, but I know for a fact that her technique is what wins the points

Also Donn, why can't you reply to people using the conventional format? It makes your stuff harder to quote.

Edited by IanMcg - 09/27/2018 at 7:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2018 at 7:28am
Hi,

You asked: "why can't you reply to people using the conventional format?"

It's just my obstreperousness.  It's a character flaw.  As a former software engineer, I noted the software is flawed badly with a common function, as in results such as  [span style = : rgb251, 251, 253;"].

They have lost control over the HTML function, so my annoying trait is implicitly attempting reform via visibility.  I don't like low standards.  A benefit of this personal quality resulted in being nominated for two national software design awards during my career.  Many are much more tolerant than I, much more agreeable.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mog1111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2020 at 6:18pm
The videos in this link are Private!!

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

So a German YouTuber, who I've been following since 2015, made a few interesting videos on the outer ply characteristics of koto, limbs and hinoki. He started a series called road to 2000ttr and is now working for xiom. I thought the things he said in his videos were very interesting and I'd like to hear your thoughts about them.

Video on Limba
Summary:
- Limba is a very good option for beginners due to longer dwell time
- players with longer strokes would benefit from using Limba
- players that hit with the sponge rather than the top sheet( a little behind the ball)
Koto
Summary:
-Timo boll is the perfect example of how to use a koto blade
- koto would benefit athletically weaker and shorter players
- the ball leaves the racket very quickly
- players with shorter arm movement like Timo are made for koto
- because of a shorter swing a perfect timing is required ( with a longer swing you can hit the ball a bit late or early, but with a short swing if you hit the ball too early or late you lose a ton of quality)
- you should play with the top sheet rather than the sponge( more on the top of the ball)

Hinoki
Summary:
- hinoki is a lot different than the other two
- it is soft and has a lot of catapult effect ( kind of as if it is alive)
- you should try to spin the ball with the hinoki ply
- a topspin drive shot is perfect for hinoki
- if you are a player that brushes the ball a lot then you shouldn't go for hinoki ( go for koto instead)
- hinoki blades are usually very fast
- longer strokes with a more constant arm speed are required( like schlager, kreanger, primorac)
- the things he said about hinoki are assuming you are using a carbon fiber underneath the hinoki ply
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2020 at 12:05am
Yes, I remember that Simon ( or the TTR Hunter) had a crisis of confidence and decided that the quality of his videos wasn't good enough so he took most of them down.

I usually found his content quite interesting though since he would often share his most recent epiphany in his videos in a manner that matched how I often felt in training when you change something (like focusing on a lower stance or moving your eyes straight to your opponents bat after your own shot or doing a tiny jump after your shot to help with footwork etc) and you had this sudden excitement and felt as though you've just added the last missing piece to your game. Of course these moments seldom last beyond a week and often are just small stepping stones one the long path of trying to learn this tricky game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2020 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

What blades do the other people in your club/league/state play with. Do TB branded blades have a 90% market share in Germany LOL? Just wondering if you can playtest many diff blades, or lots of players but all using small set of equipment.

You didn't really say much about what feel you prefer, carbon or wood. Maybe consider acoustic carbon if you like that feel, or acoustic carbon inner if you want more wood feel. Either would be a lot slower than viscaria, ACI much more. But you have good power, and those would supposedly offer more dwell and control, if vibration frequency and marketing PR are accurate. Or are you looking bty only?

Obviously my ulterior motive is to eventually get you playing Mima Ito's ACI Fastarc G1 Moristo SP superthick setup. You would be deadly with that.



I have the feeling that the outer layer of ito mima 's blade make moristo blocks nastier


Really? Why do you think that would be the case?   I'm asking seriously because I use her rubbers on a diff blade. Sorry to hijack, but nastier blocks would help me a lot.


its true,walnut outer plies make moristo blocks nastier too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2020 at 11:42pm
a 1700 passionate player with an attitude once asked "is there anything like too much limba?" and I thought at the time it was a good question. Who was it? I remember a Chicago guy from Bulgaria who knew economics and did not like the socialists. Big smile

edit: found it!



Edited by stiltt - 08/29/2020 at 11:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/01/2020 at 4:12pm
love the op even if i feel like arguing the minor details. this is all im looking for on table tennis forums
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 10:40am
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

[I have the feeling that the outer layer of ito mima 's blade make moristo blocks nastier]

This may be true, however I have heard that she has a special sponge that makes the big difference.

Thanks.


I Glued a moristo SP  sheet to a primorac carbon and the blocks and hit were nastier with sink ,but I dont like the feel of primorac carbon, its too mushy
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