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FH chiquita

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    Posted: 04/22/2019 at 11:52pm
Was wondering, what's stopping the FH to have a sidespin chiquita like the BH? So the idea is to wrap around the side of the ball with the wrist, and the forward component simply comes from pushing the elbow forward. The preparatory movement could be disguised like a push for more deception.... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 2:25am
hugo and niwa so it sometimes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 2:32am
Do not think the wrist move as well in that direction. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 2:43am
Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

Do not think the wrist move as well in that direction. 

Hmm I think from some shadowing it's definitely weaker than the BH chiquita but it could be a very valuable sudden variation to the FH receive haha... I was thinking of hooking around the side almost exclusively like a hook loop to increase the amount of sidespin and make it really curl out. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 4:49am
I know a guy that does this stroke. It was deadly to be honest, I didn't even realized what he did in the first few times. Basically, when I push short to his FH side, he hang his elbow high and then wrap around the ball very fast with his wrist and forearm while his bat pointing somewhat downward, it all happened very fast, I couldn't see very clearly. The ball was fast and it landed on the wide forehand, very hard to return because it's something you never saw or expected. And he was not even a good player, this stroke is his best weapon :D

It's not like what Calderano or Niwa does because it's much more explosive and aggressive.

Top players are adding new strokes (especially on-the-table strokes) to their arsenal and I won't be too surprised to see a pro player doing this someday. 


Edited by balldance - 04/23/2019 at 4:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 5:09am
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

I know a guy that does this stroke. It was deadly to be honest, I didn't even realized what he did in the first few times. Basically, when I push short to his FH side, he hang his elbow high and then wrap around the ball very fast with his wrist and forearm while his bat pointing somewhat downward, it all happened very fast, I couldn't see very clearly. The ball was fast and it landed on the wide forehand, very hard to return because it's something you never saw or expected. And he was not even a good player, this stroke is his best weapon :D

It's not like what Calderano or Niwa does because it's much more explosive and aggressive.

Top players are adding new strokes (especially on-the-table strokes) to their arsenal and I won't be too surprised to see a pro player doing this someday. 

Ok haha I'm gonna learn it now! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 7:57am
with the swedish serving grip it's possible, only 3 fingers: the point is having the handle travelling above the wrist in that mini back swing of the paddle and just like in the reverse pendulum, that mini back swing and the mini swing must be as close to each other as possible.

Edited by fatt - 04/23/2019 at 8:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 8:21am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

with the swedish serving grip it's possible, only 3 fingers: the point is having the handle travelling above the wrist in that mini back swing of the paddle and just like in the reverse pendulum, that mini back swing and the mini swing must be as close to each other as possible.

Think it's pretty much close to impossible to use the Swedish grip for receiving serves haha...long serves would be killer. I don't think it's necessary to drop the bat that much, my idea was more like hooking around the ball like a FH hook loop...from the top looking down the bat goes from 4-5oclock to 10oclock... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 10:48am
While it is possible, isnt the straight up hit against the shortball that ma Lin or malong often does a more effective shot. As it is hard to generateb a threatening amount of spin from the FH side wouldn't it be better to just go for speed and placement? 
Yasaka Rakza PO Yasaka Ebony Carbon Yasaka Rakza X   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

While it is possible, isnt the straight up hit against the shortball that ma Lin or malong often does a more effective shot. As it is hard to generateb a threatening amount of spin from the FH side wouldn't it be better to just go for speed and placement? 

Going for pure speed and placement is hard because it requires a very precise control of the racket angle. That's why even pros make quite a lot of mistakes doing the FH flick and they generally don't do it directly off the serve (the serves are usually too spinny to control). Even Ma Long doesn't outright flick serves that often... It's a different story for pips though as with pips the pure flick can be quite a stable shot.

Making it a sidespin chiquita will go a long way towards making it a lot more  consistent and useable.... Also you could use a push preparatory movement so opponents won't know what's coming until it's too late. From the same position you can do a sideswipe which curls towards the opponent's BH, a FH chiquita or hook flip which curls towards the opponent's FH, or simply push the ball short, long, etc... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

with the swedish serving grip it's possible, only 3 fingers: the point is having the handle travelling above the wrist in that mini back swing of the paddle and just like in the reverse pendulum, that mini back swing and the mini swing must be as close to each other as possible.

Think it's pretty much close to impossible to use the Swedish grip for receiving serves haha...long serves would be killer. I don't think it's necessary to drop the bat that much, my idea was more like hooking around the ball like a FH hook loop...from the top looking down the bat goes from 4-5oclock to 10oclock... 
it is possible. No room for an arm/forearm backswing makes the fh pendulum over the table a viable solution, especially v. short backspin. Of course against topspin there’s no need to go there as it’s taken care of by traditional technique just fine. 
That Swedish 3-fingers grip on that stroke is a true mini loop with a paddle trajectory that’s the same than what it would be if we had room for a full backswing in a side spin fh. It plays the same role than the bh Chiquita: using topspin to loop down on the table instead of gambling on a straight line hit/flick/flip that offers way less room for success.
The key is attacking the ball head up, then throwing the head down with force with the handle going over the inside of the wrist and over the thumb in the mini backswing and punch while the head is going back up to contact the ball.m after taking advantage of a spring effect from the wrist loading down and exploding back up right away.
I’ll try to make a movie in my basement.

PS: I observe that at a high level, the Chiquita is just opening a rally now, it’s not really a super aggressive and surprising stroke anymore, I see that fh pendulum over the table from the same perspective: placement, control, let the rally go.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2019 at 12:19am
Think it is to hard to bend the wrist that way. I think maybe we will see more of the opposite banana flip, is it called strawberry? 

What are you guys talking about? i am swedish and have been playing almost my whole life, and been coaching almost the half of it. What is the swedish grip? haha :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2019 at 12:35am
Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

Think it is to hard to bend the wrist that way. I think maybe we will see more of the opposite banana flip, is it called strawberry? 

What are you guys talking about? i am swedish and have been playing almost my whole life, and been coaching almost the half of it. What is the swedish grip? haha :) 
to get the same high spin penholders can get with their fh pendulum, the swedish supposedly adapted the serving grip where 3 fingers only hold the paddle with the handle pointing up and the head down. It does reproduce that vertical pendulum penholders get naturally.
Whether or not it is true your fellow brought that serving grip to shakehand world, popular culture called it the Swedish grip.
How do you call it in Sweden? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2019 at 2:22am
Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

Think it is to hard to bend the wrist that way. I think maybe we will see more of the opposite banana flip, is it called strawberry? 


I think it's not exactly the same like a banana flip which can do almost 270 deg bat rotation, realistically we can only achieve 180 deg on the FH. I dont think you need to drop the wrist much at all...just hook around the side of the ball upwards! It's more like a variation of the sidespin push except because you brush it upwards it's going to have topspin and it's gonna be faster...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2019 at 2:28am
Delete double post

Edited by blahness - 04/24/2019 at 2:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2019 at 2:29am
When people get used to it you can hook the ball around the side downwards and it should produce side underspin, watch them dump it to the base of the net and curse away!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2019 at 2:36am
The movement I'm thinking of is more like the FH hook serve sidetopspin variant...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2019 at 7:43am
i mostly Do banana and strawberry flip with backhand. Have short pimple in forehand so hard to Do much variation there. 

We Do not call the serve grip anything really. Never heard anyone call it swedish either. 

But We call banana flip ”tjeckflipp” which translate czechflip. Proably because of korbel. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2019 at 10:37am
Managed to do a couple at the club tonight but success rate was kinda low, you have to pronate actively to give the ball topspin...

But the few that I did had quite some quality in it...

Will continue trying it out!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2019 at 2:39am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

hugo and niwa so it sometimes.


Koki used it at around 18 sec in the video and a few other times (3:50 is another one). He didn't apply a lot of force though so it was just mostly spinny and soft (probably because the opponent already retreated from the table)...

Tbh I think it's possible to hit it harder than what Koki is using it for (a soft FH sidespin flip)...


Edited by blahness - 04/25/2019 at 3:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/26/2019 at 11:25pm
Hi, 

With the 3 fingers (thumb, index, middle) pendulum serve grip, a shakehand player can do the equivalent. It's not necessarily a winning shot, just a rally starter like the bh chiquita: to limbo with the pushers!


The same in slow motion 19 seconds later in the same video --> watch that sequence at speed 0.25:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTslurp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/27/2019 at 1:54am
If we´re talking of the stroke where the blade is more or less parallel with the table surface, I reckon that the penholders should be able to do that easier and with more wrist backswing than shakehanders. I tried doing it with penhold but it feels very unintuitive to me. Somehow it just appears harder to do. Dunno why.

Edited by TTslurp - 05/27/2019 at 1:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/27/2019 at 2:13am
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

I know a guy that does this stroke. It was deadly to be honest, I didn't even realized what he did in the first few times. Basically, when I push short to his FH side, he hang his elbow high and then wrap around the ball very fast with his wrist and forearm while his bat pointing somewhat downward, it all happened very fast, I couldn't see very clearly. The ball was fast and it landed on the wide forehand, very hard to return because it's something you never saw or expected. And he was not even a good player, this stroke is his best weapon :D



Frankly I was picturing some sort of modified reverse pendulum serve for this shot. Elbow high, blade brushes the outside of the ball. I think it might work.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/27/2019 at 2:33am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

I know a guy that does this stroke. It was deadly to be honest, I didn't even realized what he did in the first few times. Basically, when I push short to his FH side, he hang his elbow high and then wrap around the ball very fast with his wrist and forearm while his bat pointing somewhat downward, it all happened very fast, I couldn't see very clearly. The ball was fast and it landed on the wide forehand, very hard to return because it's something you never saw or expected. And he was not even a good player, this stroke is his best weapon :D



Frankly I was picturing some sort of modified reverse pendulum serve for this shot. Elbow high, blade brushes the outside of the ball. I think it might work.

FdT
YES!!! This is the best, clearest and shortest description, reverse pendulum servers can adapt to it much easier, bravo for the right on point golden analogy. 2 actions come naturally from there to complete the stroke: 1) ball heavier lifting (the stroke make sense v. backspin only) and 2) quick ball covering of what just became topspin as follow through. Thanks, that's really good teaching material.
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