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Butterfly Dignics 09C

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2020 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

no need to change your life style - just don't pay for overpriced products
I've never seen an over-priced item in table tennis; can you show me one and explain how it's over-priced?  I've already seen things that not everyone would choose to buy, but to be really over-priced, it would imply that almost no one would buy that product due to too high of a price.  That certainly can't apply to Dignics, since I know plenty of people who buy it without complaint, including myself.
Free country, you can pay for any available (legal) product - people know what I am saying, no need to elaborate - two completely different points of view
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2020 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

no need to change your life style - just don't pay for overpriced products
I've never seen an over-priced item in table tennis; can you show me one and explain how it's over-priced?  I've already seen things that not everyone would choose to buy, but to be really over-priced, it would imply that almost no one would buy that product due to too high of a price.  That certainly can't apply to Dignics, since I know plenty of people who buy it without complaint, including myself.


That's a bad definition and a very unhealthy and poor mentality to have. For example, there are pharmaceutical drugs that are vastly overpriced and yet people still buy them because they often have no other choice.

Outside of pharmaceuticals, where people do have more of a choice, there are a vast number of products that are overpriced and have much more evenly priced counterparts equal in quality, but people still purchase the overpriced product because it has a logo that makes their brain release feel good chemicals.

Perceived value and actual value are often very different things. If you perceive an overpriced item to be worth more than it is, despite a flood of information indicating otherwise, you are intentionally participating in willing ignorance.

Keep in mind, I and almost everyone at the time of this writing has never even touched a sheet of Dignics 09C, but if Dignics 05 is any indicator, 09C will likely not be worth the price. I just can't base full judgement on mostly conjecture.
I disagree with most of what you're saying.

Pharmaceuticals is a special case because you're balancing the moral needs of people's health against the price that a supplier chooses to charge and supplies are usually offered under monopoly conditions due to patents..  However, most products sold in the world are optional, and that certainly applies to table tennis.

The value of something that is sold is whatever people are willing to pay.  There is no intrinsic "actual value".  800 years ago it was proposed that items have a "fair value", but that's a pretty discredited idea now.  And perception is a part of value.  In fact, economists would measure value as marginal utility, which basically means what something is worth to a person for whatever reason, including perception.

Whether a given product is over-priced would be measured by whether there are enough people buying that product to justify its manufacture.  If Dignics sells well for Butterfly at its current price, then its not over-priced.  It may not be worth that price to you, but that's true for lots of things: you (or I) might not think it's worth spending a million dollars on a famous painting; or (in more prosaic terms), we might insist on buying generic store-brand products at the grocery store, rather than identical name brand products.  We make those choices about what things are worth to us (their utility), but that doesn't really say anything about the products themselves.  If there are other people who will pay what you or I will not, then that's what those items are worth.

Where I live, I know a number of people who use D05, ranging from 1400 level to 2200 level.  Virtually none of these people have any special loyalty to Butterfly or keep much track of what professionals play with (so marketing had no affect on them).  They just tried the rubber (sometimes by borrowing my paddle) and found they liked it enough to pay the price.  On the other hand, I know of a wealthy doctor who tried D05 (again, on my paddle), and really liked it, but refused to buy it on general grounds (because he just didn't want to spend that much on table tennis equipment).  

My personal experience in transitioning to D05: I was a long-time T05 user, but I always felt like there were certain aspects of T05 that could be improved (specifically for my play, not for anyone else).  When D05 came out, it sounded like it had the changes i wanted, but I was in no hurry to buy it. However, an opportunity came my way to buy a single sheet at a heavily-discounted price.  Once I tried it, I found that it really did resolve my concerns with T05 and was enough of an improvement for my game that it's worth the extra cost.  Having now used D05 for a while, I have also found the added bonus that it's more durable that T05, so that I don't really consider it more expensive that T05 anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dream1700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2020 at 2:06pm
Only two out of the top ten best selling rubbers in Japan are made by BTY (T05 and Rozena). To me, this is a fairly good indication that BTY rubbers are overpriced. 

Edited by Dream1700 - 01/25/2020 at 2:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2020 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Dream1700 Dream1700 wrote:

Only two out of the top ten best selling rubbers in Japan are made by BTY (T05 and Rozena). To me, this is a fairly good indication that BTY rubbers are overpriced. 
I don't see your logic there.  In most retail categories, the top selling items are the modest items, but that doesn't make the more expensive items over-priced.  Luxury cars don't sell as well as more moderately priced cars, but people like them enough that they do sell. It would be absurd to call them over-priced.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2020 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by Dream1700 Dream1700 wrote:

Only two out of the top ten best selling rubbers in Japan are made by BTY (T05 and Rozena). To me, this is a fairly good indication that BTY rubbers are overpriced. 

Amongst the general population?  Sure.  Amongst serious players?  Who knows.  Demographics matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2020 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by Dream1700 Dream1700 wrote:

Only two out of the top ten best selling rubbers in Japan are made by BTY (T05 and Rozena). To me, this is a fairly good indication that BTY rubbers are overpriced. 
I don't see your logic there.  In most retail categories, the top selling items are the modest items, but that doesn't make the more expensive items over-priced.  Luxury cars don't sell as well as more moderately priced cars, but people like them enough that they do sell. It would be absurd to call them over-priced.





A luxury car is truly better built than cheaper car but  butterfly rubbers are slightly better  in performance but way expensive. I see people with korbel and TBS blades  that are splintered in the surface
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2020 at 11:59pm
Price is set by the market.  That's it.  If it does not sell in sufficient quantities, Butterfly will lower the price.

In terms of actual price, D05 has more than double playing life of any ESN rubber I have tried to date and plays better for my spin heavy style of play than anything else I have tried to date.

In other words, for me, it is absolutely worth the money and, given the longevity, is a good value.

I will most certainly try D09C on the FH when it is available.  It sounds like it will be right up my alley especially if durability is comparable to D05.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2020 at 11:04am
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by Dream1700 Dream1700 wrote:

Only two out of the top ten best selling rubbers in Japan are made by BTY (T05 and Rozena). To me, this is a fairly good indication that BTY rubbers are overpriced. 
I don't see your logic there.  In most retail categories, the top selling items are the modest items, but that doesn't make the more expensive items over-priced.  Luxury cars don't sell as well as more moderately priced cars, but people like them enough that they do sell. It would be absurd to call them over-priced.





A luxury car is truly better built than cheaper car but  butterfly rubbers are slightly better  in performance but way expensive. I see people with korbel and TBS blades  that are splintered in the surface

Sounds like you don't know anything about cars.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2020 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by Dream1700 Dream1700 wrote:

Only two out of the top ten best selling rubbers in Japan are made by BTY (T05 and Rozena). To me, this is a fairly good indication that BTY rubbers are overpriced. 
I don't see your logic there.  In most retail categories, the top selling items are the modest items, but that doesn't make the more expensive items over-priced.  Luxury cars don't sell as well as more moderately priced cars, but people like them enough that they do sell. It would be absurd to call them over-priced.





A luxury car is truly better built than cheaper car but  butterfly rubbers are slightly better  in performance but way expensive. I see people with korbel and TBS blades  that are splintered in the surface

Sounds like you don't know anything about cars.

Sounds ?but I know the diffrence you can love and breathe butterlfly but you cant compare both brands people dont have audis because they cant pay but me and many people can buy butterfly but dont like it


Edited by mykonos96 - 01/29/2020 at 3:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 7:19am
I tried a brand new D09C for 2 minutes, and I found it very very similar to the rubber I'm using, Hurricane 8 40deg with 3 layers of booster. So if you want to save money...

D9c might have a bit more catapult, but same throw, similar hardness, similar grip. basically you play the same. For comparison, Dignics 05 is low throw and faster, with respect to both rubbers. If you play with D05 with the same stroke you use with H8 or D09c, you net the ball .

Note: the D09c was was mounted on a TB ALC; the H8 on my Viscaria, which is almost the same blade.

Note: H8 black is a bit different from the red , more inconsistent (some play well and some are very dead and don't react to boosting).  so I suggest you get a red one first.


Edited by seguso - 09/06/2021 at 7:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 8:31am
Originally posted by seguso seguso wrote:

I tried a brand new D09C for 2 minutes, and I found it very very similar to the rubber I'm using, Hurricane 8 40deg with 3 layers of booster. So if you want to save money...

D9c might have a bit more catapult, but same throw, similar hardness, similar grip. basically you play the same. For comparison, Dignics 05 is low throw and faster, with respect to both rubbers. If you play with D05 with the same stroke you use with H8 or D09c, you net the ball .

Note: the D09c was was mounted on a TB ALC; the H8 on my Viscaria, which is almost the same blade.

Note: H8 black is a bit different from the red , more inconsistent (some play well and some are very dead and don't react to boosting).  so I suggest you get a red one first.

If you count the cost of the time involved in boosting, it'll pay for itself very fast LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 9:03am
I tried a brand new D09C for 2 minutes, and I found it very very similar to the rubber I'm using, Hurricane 8 40deg with 3 layers of booster. So if you wa
nt to save money...


Your analysis is very sound.  D09C, with its hard sponge and tackier topsheet, must have been designed to compete with the Hurricane line, without the hassle of boosting, to strive to realize the benefits of this famed rubber line.  Butterfly was successful here.

D05 was targeted to the Tenergy users and attempted users who find the bounciness of Tenergy just a bit too much for the all around play that is needed in today's game or to those Tenergy users who wanted to explore an advanced and emergingly important topsheet trend that is resulting in a degree of greater spin generation.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 9:04am
@blahness
fair enough :))
though iIn my experience you just need 3 layers to prime the rubber before glueing, then you don't need to unglue it . (baby oil on topsheet every 2 days without unglueing)


Edited by seguso - 09/06/2021 at 9:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 9:10am
Originally posted by seguso seguso wrote:

fair enough :))
though iIn my experience you just need 3 layers to prime the rubber before glueing, then you don't need to unglue it . (baby oil on topsheet every 2 days without unglueing)

You are way out of my league here!  ;>}
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 9:35am
Hurricane 8 does not have that solid feeling of D09c. For an advanced player, I doubt that boosted H8 can provide as much power and support as D09c for strong hit or loop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timoboll89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 10:28am
dignics rubbers (09C included) are made for booster...the rubbers without booster feel dead. 
For sure you can still play with them but there are many less expensive rubbers out there.
If you play at a good level (i wont say pro but a semipro player) then dignics with booster are just on a different planet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 11:01am
Originally posted by timoboll89 timoboll89 wrote:

dignics rubbers (09C included) are made for booster...the rubbers without booster feel dead. 
For sure you can still play with them but there are many less expensive rubbers out there.
If you play at a good level (i wont say pro but a semipro player) then dignics with booster are just on a different planet.


You can say the same for any rubber. That is, most high level players prefer a boosted rubber if allowed and if they can afford it.


Edited by Tinykin - 09/06/2021 at 11:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 11:09am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by seguso seguso wrote:

I tried a brand new D09C for 2 minutes, and I found it very very similar to the rubber I'm using, Hurricane 8 40deg with 3 layers of booster. So if you want to save money...

D9c might have a bit more catapult, but same throw, similar hardness, similar grip. basically you play the same. For comparison, Dignics 05 is low throw and faster, with respect to both rubbers. If you play with D05 with the same stroke you use with H8 or D09c, you net the ball .

Note: the D09c was was mounted on a TB ALC; the H8 on my Viscaria, which is almost the same blade.

Note: H8 black is a bit different from the red , more inconsistent (some play well and some are very dead and don't react to boosting).  so I suggest you get a red one first.

If you count the cost of the time involved in boosting, it'll pay for itself very fast LOL


@Blahness, agreed. Seguso has accidentally(?) stated a case to buy Dignics 09c over H8. Especially if those players don't play frequently enough to want the hassle of boosting their rubber.




Edited by Tinykin - 09/06/2021 at 2:11pm
>65yo, presently overweight rather than obese.
Darker Speed 90 (x3) with various rubber combinations.
(Present favourite)- Darker 5p-2A, 5ply Hinoki blade with T05H/T05H

Delusion is an asset
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timoboll89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 11:17am
I disagree...tenergy and esn are playable out of the package. To bring out dignics potential you need to boost.
There is no reason to prefer a dignics over a tenergy without booster because if you apply just water based glue the rubber reaches 30% of its potential whereas with tenergy or all esn rubbers you have 80% without booster.
What i mean is that you can play with an unboosted dignics but you are wasting money
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 10:07pm
D64 and D80 are perfectly playable without any booster. Boosting would ruin them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2021 at 9:43pm
09c is perfectly fine out of the package, but it needs a reboost after 4-5 months. My 9 months old sheet has only had one reboost and still way better performance than a comparable esn rubber after that time.
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